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Mark Hamilton
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 Posted: Sun 02 Aug, 2009 8:29 pm Post subject: Spangenhelms |
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Am looking for a reasonably priced and as historically accurate Spangenhelm as is affordable for display purposes. I've been looking at these two, and was wondering if anyone has had one, or what your thoughts are. I'm not all that knowledgeable about helms, so I'm unclear of the implications of various steel thicknesses etc. I'd prefer to buy in Europe, and these are the two I am considering:
http://www.battlemerchant.com/Helmets/Battle-...:2190.html
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http://www.battlemerchant.com/Helmets/Battle-...:2339.html
I appreciate any and all feedback,
Mark
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Martin Erben
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Bjorn Hagstrom
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| Posted: Mon 03 Aug, 2009 4:32 am Post subject: |
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I have one of these:
http://www.battlemerchant.com/Helmets/Battle-...:2339.html
Historical accuracy on a scale of 1-10, maybe a 3. It is thick and heavy so it works for situations where you might be exposed to accidental hits to the head, such as show fights. (Note that one should be careful with any activities that involves hits to the head, and helmet is only one part of the protection system you will need to do that in a controlled safe way) It is a bit top heavy, wich is quite unavoidable with this design, and that might impair your movement a bit unless the fit and straps are well adjusted.
It looks ok from a distance, I had to redo the strapwork and ripped out the inside lining and replaced it with one of my own design. This is not necessary if you wear it with a padded coif or such.
For the price it is OK, but in hindsight I would rather have saved up some more and gone for a raised helm instead. Now that I have one that works and I have spent some time in customizing it is oh so much harder to motivate the expense of getting a slightly better one.
There is nothing quite as sad as a one man conga-line...
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Mark Hamilton
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| Posted: Mon 03 Aug, 2009 8:34 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for that, i think I'll give it a miss then. I want something that looks period accurate, I'm not concerned about functionality as I won't be wearing or using it.
What are the other options for Spangenhelms in the EU?
Mark
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Andreas Auer
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| Posted: Mon 03 Aug, 2009 8:43 am Post subject: |
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do you know "die-Ritterschmiede" ?
http://die-ritterschmiede.de/
L.
The secret is,
to keep that pointy end thingy away from you...
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Jean Thibodeau
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Mark Hamilton
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| Posted: Mon 03 Aug, 2009 11:14 am Post subject: |
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Once again thanks for the comments.
Plenty of food for thought there Jean, thankyou, I'm giving some of those options serious consideration.
Has anyone tried any of the helms from die ritterschmeide? If so what did you think. There are a couple of models I quite like
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Olov Tidemalm
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Mon 03 Aug, 2009 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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"Spang" is an old norse word for "small plate", so strictly speaking pointed helmets without crosbands are not spanghelms, despite the similar shape...
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 03 Aug, 2009 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Elling Polden wrote: | | "Spang" is an old norse word for "small plate", so strictly speaking pointed helmets without crosbands are not spanghelms, despite the similar shape... |
Nasal Helms or Conical Nasal helms when raised from one plate with or without the nasal bar being added on as a separate piece or as part of the raised plate.
Although I think that some of the Conical Helms might not always have a nasal bar ?
I sort of like the look of the riveted ones myself although the ones raised from a single plate also have their charms.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Mark Hamilton
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| Posted: Mon 03 Aug, 2009 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Elling Polden wrote: | | "Spang" is an old norse word for "small plate", so strictly speaking pointed helmets without crosbands are not spanghelms, despite the similar shape... |
Yep. I'm torn between the spangenhelm and the raised helm, but for a display piece I feel that the Spang just has a little more character.
In terms of battle effectiveness, I don't think there can be much argument that the raised design is better, with a smoother surface for deflection and, if well forged, fewer weak points. I've often wondered why the great helm developed with the bucket shape after this, as surely the flat top would invite serious blunt force trauma that would be dissipated by a smooth curved surface.
There's a really nice one on the die ritterschmeide site that Andreas mentioned for €165, I just want to find out if anyone has any further info on it, as I don't know how the photo will compare to reality!
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 03 Aug, 2009 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Hamilton wrote: | I've often wondered why the great helm developed with the bucket shape after this, as surely the flat top would invite serious blunt force trauma that would be dissipated by a smooth curved surface.
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Yeah, I like the Great helm but they do sort of look like a steel bucket !
Some of the " later " Sugar Loaf Great helms look like a Conical helm with a plate cylinder added on and although they are supposed to be a later development of the Great Helm I always thought it odd that they are considered a later form of Great Helm since adding sides, front and back to a Conical Helm would seem to have been an obvious choice as well as seeming better crafted than a crude steel bucket ?
Oh, the flat surface of a Flat Topped Great Helm shouldn't be that easy to hit right on the flat unless the person hitting is a foot or two above the person wearing the helm I think: If both fighters are of similar height a sword or axe you tend to hit the circumference of the top rim around the top rather than the top I think ! ? A blow can be deflected by this rim ( circle ) almost as well as the surface of a cone.
But yes in special circumstances one might be able to hit the flat top square on.   
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Mark Hamilton
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| Posted: Mon 03 Aug, 2009 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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I hadn't thought about the height issue, but even the fact that the sides are quite vertical means that a perpendicular blow straight into the side will direct all the force in that direction, if the sides were curved upward to a domed top, then some of this force would be deflected up. I see what you mean about the later great helms becoming curved again, but I've always felt it seemed to be a counter intuitive leap to go from curved to straight, and then back to curved again later on!
Anyway just to keep things on topic, if anyone has any info on the die ritterschmeide norman helm (or any of their helms), I'd be interested to hear it!
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Antonio Lamadrid
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| Posted: Mon 03 Aug, 2009 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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I have the Spangenhelm Stahl-Messing Nr 0177. It is a good, well made helmet and I am happy with it. I was put off a little bit by Mr. Kallus. He liked to joke in e-mails and did not sound very serious or professional, but he delivered the helm with no delays and I cannot complain. I would buy from him again.
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J.D. Crawford
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| Posted: Mon 03 Aug, 2009 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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This doesn't exactly answer the original question, but I really like my 16 gauge Spangenhelm with Gjermundbu style spectacles and mail aventail from Valentine Armory (Not sure if they still make these - maybe just custom). But lately I have been lusting after the ones at Mercenary Tailer - that's good stuff.
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Tue 04 Aug, 2009 7:59 am Post subject: |
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Early great helms developed from mass produced, "coronet" style helmets, posibly during the crusades, and where wore in conjunction with mail coifs. The design was not optimal, but it was cheap, and effective enough to stay in use for a century.
What WAS added, however, is improved protection to the side of the head.
On some of the depictions of helmed vikings, they have two piece, or even raised helmets, though this is probably in the later period.
http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Ledbergsstenen_20041231.jpg
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Mark Hamilton
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| Posted: Tue 04 Aug, 2009 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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I think I might have to cast the net a little wider here! Aside from the Mercenary's Tailor, what other reputable makers are there producing historically accurate pieces? USA makers are fine also. I'd prefer ones that don't have massive waiting periods!
Thanks,
Mark
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Patrick Kelly
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David Huggins
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K J Seago
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| Posted: Wed 05 Aug, 2009 5:00 am Post subject: |
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Tim Noyes's helms seem good, a lot of the boys in regia use them although his swords are a tad on the heavy side.
just another student of an interesting subject, 
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This is a standard topic