Sickle fighting according to PH Mair - new video -- myArmoury.com

Reinier van Noort

Hi all,

I put a video online showing our work-in-progress interpretation of the first page of Paulus Hector Mairs sickle fighting. This video was originally meant for internal use only (as the modern equivalent of taking notes), but I figured it might be good to share it now. As a WIP, there are already some things that I now have new ideas on that need testing.

We hope to make better videos of all pages soon! Enjoy!

Reinier

http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb00006570/image...?seite=455

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3QUzuU0p0E

James Head · Posted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 4:59 am Post subject:

Greetings Reinier!

Awesome video!!!!! You don't realize how exciting this is for me!

I have also recently been working on Mair's Sickle. But I only have access to translation of the first page. I've noticed the Latin and German text for the same page end very differently. Just like you, I have also recently made some videos of our work. Check them out! I am particularly happy how similar our two groups look in the video. That must mean we are on the right track!

This is an older video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmy7OCUIPp4

And this one I just put up last night. First there is some Peasant Staff, and then the Sickle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-cgClKJbGg

Check them out.

Reinier van Noort · Posted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 5:04 am Post subject: !

Hi James,

I saw your videos; they are very interesting. I especially like your work with the flail. I think you are on the right track with the sickle but you might also be missing some bits. The first thing I did is get an old sickle. I got one that happened to have teeth. Next I took it too thick grasses (or reeds), and tried cutting them. The teeth angle backwards (just like in the images, only with much finer teeth). This means they cut mainly when you pull the sickle back towards you! I think this is a key-point in interpreting sickle fighting techniques! You seem to have a different approach to cutting with a sickle that for me hasn't really worked yet Wink

The peasant staff is the next bit I want to work on (After finishing the last few pages). I recently "acquired" some thick tree branches, and we have the translation of the latin ready!

Good luck, train safe!

Reinier van Noort · Posted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 5:13 am Post subject:

I just checked your new video (well only the second half; I want to start with the peasants staff with an empty mind and not with other people's ideas). Very interesting; makes me go back to my source material!

M. Eversberg II · Posted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 6:03 am Post subject:

Great work both of you (and Mr Noort particularly as it's his thread)! I am interested in these strange techniques (the sickle particularly) and look forward to how these develop.

Mr. Noort, can you share your translations of the Latin? I'm afraid I've not learned it yet :/

M.

Reinier van Noort · Posted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 6:39 am Post subject:

Mr. Eversberg II, thank you for your kind words. It is our intention to share our latin translations, only unfortunately just not yet for a couple of reasons.

A) The latin was translated into dutch, not english. I made an english translation of the dutch translation of the latin (which is likely a translation of the german), but there were some issues in the dutch translation that were since corrected. I have not yet updated my english translation. (The dutch translation was not made by me, but by a friend who is a lot more qualified than I am.)
B) We want to have a solid (not perfect, just solid) interpretation of our own before we share the translation. The idea is to make a nice pdf at some point (hopefully in the near future) and offer that online along with movies of our interpretations.

Andreas Auer · Posted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 8:51 am Post subject:

do you know the group "dreynschlag" ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3NTWUkGpLw

Reinier van Noort · Posted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 8:52 am Post subject:

Yes, they are great too. We had some interesting discussions with them in Dijon last May. They are definitely further with this material than we are!

M. Eversberg II · Posted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 10:25 am Post subject:

I think my Dutch is better than my Latin, but not by much Wink

Well, hopefully it all gets ironed out eventually. This is the strangest fight book I know of so far. Makes me wonder if Mair copied it from somewhere...

M.

Randall Pleasant

I really like the videos by both groups.

Ok, I'll admit that the following is being a little nick-picky but there were some negatives for me, such as the clothes of the people and background. In the first video the whole living history setting just serves to take one's eye off the action. I'll admit I don't like mixing living history and martial arts (oil and water). Also, the guy on the right look like he was wearing a small tub on his head, ie it looked silly. The second video would have looked better if the heavy coats and the hat were dropped while filming. Also when a video shows only two people it really not nessisary to refer to them by color, "man on left" and "man on right" are much better discriptions.

Again, I like the videos. Thanks for sharing them.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW

James Head · Posted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 7:05 pm Post subject:

Hey! I think it's just awesome that there are more and more people getting into these exotic weapons. The more we share ideas and critiques the better we will all get and hopefully make more folks interested.

@ Randall. I think in both cases concerning our respective videos, both Reinier and myself initialy filmed our clips for our own personal review and study. So clearly things are rough around the edges (blaze orange hunting caps, kettle helms etc..)

My experience has been that using the "man on left, man on right" system can make things more confusing when you also have to deal with "right leg, left arm" etc...

Reinier van Noort · Posted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 11:21 pm Post subject:

@ Randall, thanks for the kind words!

About the rest: I see your points there, and partly agree. I realize that in your part of the world, with Ren Faires etc. it might be desirable to distance your art from that. Over here it is more necessary to stay away from LARP'ers. Having historically correct costume, and not wearing either jeans or sneakers is usually enough to do that.

In an hour or two, after I reached work, I will put the video up for page 2. It was shot at the same time (we do this work when we have some time; it doesn't happen often enough), so it also features our 13th century costume. For pages 3 and 4 I can't find our updated videos (I was sure we had some, but can't find them). For the other pages (except 15 and 16), videos were shot during training, i.e. in modern clothes.

**And I made that helmet myself damnit. I messed up a bit with the pattern, measuring my own head to long and narrow, but otherwise I am quite proud of that, it being only my second helmet ever, and without having access to heat** Mad

Andreas Auer · Posted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 11:23 pm Post subject:

havent said it in the first post...great work...and keep it comming...

silly hats ??? thats one of Dreynschlags reputations, wearing historical correct silly hats...

L.

Reinier van Noort · Posted: Thu 30 Jul, 2009 12:31 am Post subject:

Here's page 2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8-OgvbwA6E

It might be clearer filming from the other side, and some things are a bit sloppy in this video. As I've said before; we hope to make better videos of all pages soon, and then we will film it all from both sides. What can't really be seen well is a cut at Youval's wrist as I step back, which is defended against by coming forward immediately so that the cut can't be forced, and attacking.

M. Eversberg II · Posted: Thu 30 Jul, 2009 2:51 am Post subject:

What kind of wire are those sickles made of? I think I might just go ahead and make a pair out of coat hangers Razz

M.

Reinier van Noort · Posted: Thu 30 Jul, 2009 3:15 am Post subject:

I made some out of 6mm thick steel roundbar from a DIY store, following the curves of some real sickles I bought secondhand. This is easy to bend, and needs re-bending after some practice. The second version I made (which can be seen in the films) is made of 8mm thick roundbar from the same DIY. This is hell to bend (as I can't work hot, only cold), but doesn't loose shape.

I made handles out of rope+woodglue. This is easy to do, but the handles came loose which is not too handy. Next version I make I'll have to solve that.

M. Eversberg II · Posted: Thu 30 Jul, 2009 6:56 am Post subject:

Hm, I may have to aquire some of that rod. For handles, I wonder if I can figure out a better way.

M.

EDIT: James Head, take a look here -- http://paulushectormair.blogspot.com/

Nathan F · Posted: Thu 30 Jul, 2009 11:28 am Post subject:

hey does anyone know of any of the dusack work if it has been translated i have seen one plate done by arme antica in rome but thats all.
also how are you translating it?
must be a huge challenge please tell me all i want to work on the dusack like yourself i want to have my own training source for the short sword.
any advice?

Allan Senefelder · Industry Professional

James, when did you guys shoot that, Saturday evening? I remember you working on it Saturday morning.

James Head · Posted: Thu 30 Jul, 2009 3:15 pm Post subject: