Japanese Swordsmanship vs European -- myArmoury.com

James R.Fox · Posted: Fri 03 Jul, 2009 9:28 am Post subject:

Mr Gandy-I did not express myself well. I meant to say that the Japanese Seem to have picked up the Idea of a two sword method of fighting, as they did gunpowder, the plate half armour curiass, and several other military ideas from the Portugese and Spanish as these things appeared in Japan immediately after Portugese contact. The thing that got them expelled was the appearence of commeners trained to use matchlock muskets and cannon under Takeda Shingen and then Oda Nobunaga. Hideyoshi attempted to supress these ideas when he became Shogun,but it was only when Togukawa Ieyasu conquered Japan that christianity was destroyed, gunpowder auppressed,and the commoners totally disarmed.He was smart enough to forsee the gunpowder revolujtion in warfare and destroy it while it could be done, after the Battle of Seigigahara, which gave him control of Japan.

Anders Backlund

Patrick De Block · Posted: Fri 03 Jul, 2009 11:20 am Post subject:

Tetsuzan Kuroda has two dvd's with English subtitles: the more-dimensional body and the multi-dimensional body which are available at BudoJapan.com if someone is interested in just what he is doing.
At 0:36 there is indeed a fleeting moment in which they're square to each other but they are in transition. Look at those dvd's to see what they are doing, it is a core movement, transitioning from a left hanmi to a right hanmi.

William Carew · Posted: Fri 03 Jul, 2009 1:50 pm Post subject:

Nicholas Allan Wilson · Posted: Fri 03 Jul, 2009 3:23 pm Post subject:

William Carew · Posted: Fri 03 Jul, 2009 3:55 pm Post subject:

Nicholas Allan Wilson · Posted: Fri 03 Jul, 2009 4:13 pm Post subject:

Thank you for your reply. I guess this can be a somewhat complicated subject seeing as the field of swordsmanship is continuously expanding.

As far as doing HEMA is concerned, my plate is currently full as I'm involved in another martial art. Thanks for the offer though.

~nic

Max Chouinard · Posted: Sat 04 Jul, 2009 8:34 am Post subject:

As for binding, it is developped in some styles, but I think none does it as much as Maniwa Nen ryu. I've seen many of their techniques where they use the tsuba to trap a blade (not a very sturdy trap one might argue, but then I think it is necessary in the execution of these techniques). The tsuba adequately protects the hand from all sides, a cross guard is good but leaves the sides unprotected (not talking about later complex hilts).

There are no proof to claim that espada y daga and nito have a connection. Musashi did not invented this style and it seems from many older schools that it could have been known before the arrival of the europeans.

Halfswording is known in various forms again. Most of the time it is done with the hand open, as it permit to slide the blade easily. But with the O dachi of the shumpukan, it is done with the hand closed. Most of the time around some kind of material like paper, but I'm not sure it would have been necessary all the time.

Elling Polden · Posted: Sat 04 Jul, 2009 9:40 am Post subject:

The long crossguard seems to be a european invention, and is posibly a result of other european weapon technologies. This could be the use of kite shields (resulting in up-close-and personal binding matches), sword and buckler fighting (featuring lots of strikes against the hands), or some other development...

Patrick De Block · Posted: Sat 04 Jul, 2009 10:33 am Post subject:

Hi William,

Those are indeed the ones I meant.

I won't be lazy this time and post some links.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeV3WUeh2QA

This is Kashima Shin Ryu. What you see is harai-tachi. What is told is that the founder got this from an exorcism ritual at the Kashima Shrine and that he developped his techniques from this harai-tachi. Those techniques aim at defeating the opponent without blocking or striking the opponent's sword.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bel3EpC26aQ

At the beginning you see Maniwa Nen ryu and the bigger part is Kendo. It's interesting to compare the basic postures. Maniwa Nen Ryu is wider and the fukuro shinai is held to the side ( a right sided Alber or a Schrankhut on the wrong side). The Kendo posture is smaller (shoulder width) and the shinai is held in chudan (Pflug or rather Sprechfenster) which makes it possible for them to square up altough even at shoulder width it is not necessary . The posture of the Maniwa Nen Ryu is comparable to one of the postures of the Kashima Shin Ryu and is called in KSR mugamae (no posture). The way MNR and Kendo generate power is also comparable, though the Kendo people seem a bit nervous compared to MNR.
The one on the left in MNR is in Vor though he never initiates the attack and the last cut he does is comparable to the one Kuroda does in the fourth kata (see link in a previous post by Nicholas). Kuroda in fact does twice the same, two kata cut upwards (ending in Ochs) and the other two downwards. The difference is in the way he generates power, he does it by transitioning from left to right or vice versa, as opposed to MNR.

If you use a sword you can do two things, lift it up and bring it down or push it to the right - pull/push it to the left always keeping your right hand center. You could say that Kendo is lifting and cutting down while Maniwa Nen Ryu (both having comparable ways of generating power) is not simply lifting the sword to bring it down. And Kuroda who generates power in another way is perfectly capable of cutting straight down or up for that matter.

The aim of suriashi (sliding step) is to teach you to keep your hips level, you shouldn't move your trunk to the left or right or bob up and down. You're one step away from death and you should cut with your whole body. By the way, the one on the left in MNR barely moves compared to his opponent.

Generally speaking JSA aim at not getting in the bind, while WSA suppose that you will end in the bind but as Max wrote, this is not true of the Maniwa Nen Ryu and I guess Liechtenauer would have approved if you did a Zornhau immediatedly killing your opponent.

Nicholas Allan Wilson · Posted: Sat 04 Jul, 2009 2:43 pm Post subject:

Another difference I don't think anyone has mentioned is the way a katana (excluding tachi) and longsword are worn. Katana being slipped through the obi are worn very close to the body, almost riding on the hip. Based off photographic examples, longswords appear suspended either at an angle with a sword frog and other straps or worn vertically(?). Are there other ways of wearing a longsword?

~nic

Max Chouinard · Posted: Sun 05 Jul, 2009 8:28 am Post subject:

Jean Thibodeau · Posted: Sun 05 Jul, 2009 7:17 pm Post subject:

Patrick De Block · Posted: Tue 07 Jul, 2009 9:35 pm Post subject:

Well, Jean, it looks like no one will do it, but maybe I didn't wait long enough.
Don't tell anyone I suggested this, but, in the evening when the light is fading go quietly to your backyard not armed with your trusted longsword but with a katana and run through your basic longsword drills with it.