| Author |
Message |
|
Joe Fults
|
 Posted: Sat 23 May, 2009 2:26 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| James Arlen Gillaspie wrote: | | . Brigs always get ratty looking after a few years, anyway, which lessens their decorator appeal. 'Fluid Film' (TM), on the other hand, and a tube of Autosol, can keep your plate looking good without a lot of effort indefinitely. |
Had never really though about this as a possibility.
It something I would think of as more of a consideration for a user piece...is it general?
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
|
|
  |
 |
|
Ben van Koert
|
| Posted: Sun 24 May, 2009 9:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thank you very much for the compliment! 
There's still a lot to improve, and there are so much better brig kits out there, but it's very nice to hear!
My verdict: Brigandine for sure, although I'm already planning a cuirass for a full plate rig. It's horses for courses, actually, just like back then, but I just love the look of a brig. The point of a brigandine looking bad after a few years of use isn't quite true if you care well for it, but I agree that eventually the detriment adds up faster than on a plate cuirass.
My brig's been in heavy service for a year now:
Still in quite good shape.
My brig next to a great cuirass, Arne Koets's made by Jeffrey Hedgecock.
All these photo's were made at last weekend's foot tournament. (c) Bertus Brokamp
When you're comparing between those two suppliers -White Rose and Best Armour- , I'd go for the brig. Do yourself a favour and buy a decent replica cuirass if you're going for the cuirass option. The difference between good fitting and an ill fitting armour is astronomical. If you´re willing to shell out for a good brig, then you should also be willing to pay for a good cuirass. Once you´ve noticed the difference, you don´t want to go back. My brigandine is actually a bit too big for me, but with some tricks I managed to make it fully functional. With a full plate cuirass, this isn´t so easy.
Also take in consideration what you want to display and base your choices on that, or if that isn't that important for you, do what you think is the most cool.. *cough!*brigandine!*cough!*
Most important of all is that it will need to fit you.
Edit: I didn't notice that it isn't to be worn, so fit is less important, I guess. Then again, make sure all the proportions will match against each other, as it won't look good otherwise. My guess is that if you're going to have it, you'll want to wear it, so I still think it's best to have it made to your measurements, to prevent you from buying 'useless' items.
Last edited by Ben van Koert on Mon 25 May, 2009 10:10 am; edited 1 time in total
|
|
 |
|
R D Moore
|
| Posted: Sun 24 May, 2009 12:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Great pics fron Ben van Koert! They should really start you thinking again! This will be a tough call, Joe, but I have to vote for the brigandine. I like the way it looks better than the plate. It may not offer as much protection, but how many times are you going to have to worry about an acute point penetrating between the plates? Just once I'd wager if you follow up with the cheerleader thing. Here's a link to a pic of PJ in a red one: http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/images/homemade.jpg
"No man is entitled to the blessings of freedom unless he be vigilant in its preservation" ...Gen. Douglas Macarthur
|
|
 |
|
|
Joe Fults
|
| Posted: Sun 24 May, 2009 3:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
That is why you need the fast car to go with the cheerleader! 
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
Last edited by Joe Fults on Sun 24 May, 2009 3:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joe Fults
|
| Posted: Sun 24 May, 2009 3:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ben,
Thanks for the reply, and double thanks for the great photos.
On the topic of being worn, there would be some wearing, but I'm also being honest with myself (regarding display as a focus) because there is not much medieval living history movement here. The is a fair bit that is post colonial (Civil War especially). A few small "other" groups here and there. One or two small events (genrally shared with other periods). For the most part people with kit are going to wear it at Halloween, at ren faire or at a comic/game con (where you're as apt to meet a Kligon as a man at arms) or as part of an SCA group (which has some different requirements).
In fairness to both vendors mentioned by me in this thread, neither will be able to fit me in person. Based on very brief email exchanges, both want quite a few measurements with whatever I plan on wearing under the stuff, if I decide buy something (preferrably done by someone familiar with fitting armour or at least a tailor).
Nothing is being represented as "off the rack".
Either option will require a reasonable wait in queue.
Random thought: If I could ever afford the cheerleader and fast car, I could probably do the brigandine and the plate.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
|
|
|
|
|
|
John Gnaegy
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joe Fults
|
| Posted: Sun 24 May, 2009 5:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Interesting?
Yes, but it does not call to me.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ben van Koert
|
| Posted: Tue 26 May, 2009 3:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
How about this for a compromise then?
Brigandine + plackart = ultraspiff!
| Quote: |
I say narrow the choice down by "who" you plan to be.
15th century knight... plate
Well "armed" 15th century soldier, I'd go with the brig. Just below the level of a non noble man at arms, your choice. Man at arms, plate.
|
I don't agree, there were just as many variations in quality with brigandines as with breastplates and cuirasses. Some were suited for footsoldiers and others were more splendid and refined for the elite. For example, I don't believe a brigandine with silk velvet cover and gilded nails would be made for a common foot soldier. Maybe a retainer of a powerful lord would wear a brigandine like that, but there are also accounts of men of power wearing a light brigandine under their clothing while traveling through a hostile area, in the sense of a modern bullet-proof vest.
| Joe Fults wrote: |
On the topic of being worn, there would be some wearing, but I'm also being honest with myself (regarding display as a focus) because there is not much medieval living history movement here. The is a fair bit that is post colonial (Civil War especially). A few small "other" groups here and there. One or two small events (genrally shared with other periods). For the most part people with kit are going to wear it at Halloween, at ren faire or at a comic/game con (where you're as apt to meet a Klingon as a man at arms) or as part of an SCA group (which has some different requirements).
|
If there are no groups to join, why don't you lead by example, and do it like it should be done? Eventually you could form your own group. 
|
|
|
|
|
Felix R.
|
| Posted: Tue 26 May, 2009 9:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
Hi Ben is this an interpretive recreation or where ist the Brigandine Plackart thing based on? From what I read the setup was more covered breastplate with plackart.
|
|
|
|
|
Randall Moffett
|
| Posted: Tue 26 May, 2009 9:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
To go along with what Ben has said regarding knightly or lordly use of brigs. It seems not to be the standard but happens enough that I'd not think it unusual to see a knight in a brig in combat. I think from the large amount of primary source reading and artwork I have seen it is still secondary use for war but it happens nonetheless. This brings up some questions. Why did some knights select them for warfare? I cannot say I know for sure. Likely personal preference. Many brigs are cheap but you can get some very nice ones made up. Just like most plate armour. Of course this is irrelevant as it does not seem you want to use either.
That said going back to my first post. If you want something symbolic of knighthood or chivalry etc. I'd go with the plate. When Talbot is killed at Castillion he was in a brig. Supposedly it was because he said he'd never array/arm/or something against the French and this was a viable loophole for a knight/noble.
Ben,
That is an amazing harness!
Felix,
I have heard that as well but not sure how much I buy into it. I have found brigandined shoulders in inventories and such and makes me hesitant to think anyone knows for sure... To me this theme seems like something that needs more research.
RPM
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ben van Koert
|
| Posted: Tue 26 May, 2009 10:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Felix R. wrote: | | Hi Ben is this an interpretive recreation or where ist the Brigandine Plackart thing based on? From what I read the setup was more covered breastplate with plackart. |
It's made by Will West and I think its an interpretive recreation. I believe it's based on several images like MS 6 f.51v from the Bibliotheque Royale Albert Ier in Brussels and MS Fr 16830 f.124 from the Bibliotheque Nationale, and many others like these:
Note the guy on the right, with the yellow (gilded?) pauldrons, plackart and tassets. Also of interest is the guy on the far left, with what appears to be splinted cuisses and greaves in 15th century context!
My personal interpretation of most of these kind of images is also that of fabric covered upper cuirasses, but there are some exceptions, like here:
The mounted figure on the right wearing the red armour. To me this definately is a brigandine with plackart, especially when compared to the guy in front of him on the brown horse, wearing what I think is full plate, with a green fabric covered breastplate.
Besides that, what do you think of this then?
Based on:
A recreation of a medieval interpretation of ancient greco roman armour... 
Commissioned and used for jousting by Tobias Capwell, for a special occasion.
Ps.
Thanks Randall!
Last edited by Ben van Koert on Tue 26 May, 2009 10:27 am; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
Felix R.
|
| Posted: Tue 26 May, 2009 10:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yes, those are the type of pictures I was thinking about.
For the idea about the knight in Brigandine, how about the Lentner in the late 14th cent. something that is often referred to as a Corrazina. Or for instance the covered breastplate with fauld from Munich. When we think of such pieces covered under some kind of Jupon, even when this outer shell doesn´t have arms. Is there evidence what they were actually wearing under it. Because even for solid breastplates there are not to many extant examples. Don´t know about inventory lists though.
Although it looks more 15th cent like in this topic.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ben van Koert
|
| Posted: Tue 26 May, 2009 11:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have to agree with Randall, by the way. If you want to go for the archetype of a knight, I'd go for full plate too, as it's more iconic than a brigandine. However, if you want something more different, and something you are able to wear before the rest of your rig is finished a brigandine is more versatile.
Speaking about brigandine shoulders, they give a very nice effect to your armour, should you incorporate them. I used a pair in my previous setup, and they really stand out on a battlefield. This is how it looks:
Felix: I'm not enough into the 14th century to give an answer to those questions, unfortunately. My focus is mid to late 15th C. I hope someone else can tell.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Boyd C-F
Location: Nelson, New Zealand Joined: 08 Oct 2008
Posts: 57
|
| Posted: Tue 26 May, 2009 1:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
For those Gents who have Brigs how easy are they to get on and off? Have you also tried wearing breastplates? If so how do they compare?
I'm speculating that brigs would be easier to get off compared to a breastplate. Which would be great for having a rest out of range of archers/crossbowmen or for removing armour that has been pierced by an arrow or quarrel.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joe Fults
|
| Posted: Tue 26 May, 2009 3:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks for all the advice, and most especially, all the photos. Some really great ones in the thread now.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joe Fults
|
| Posted: Tue 26 May, 2009 3:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ben,
Do you have the plates in your brigandine tinned, painted or left un-treated? Is it a White Rose creation or did it come from another maker? Also, is there a liner in it?
Finally, as an active brigandine owner/user, anything that you would do different the next time you buy one?
Thanks in advance!
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
|
|
|
|
|
Randall Moffett
|
| Posted: Tue 26 May, 2009 10:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
14th century breastplates become fairly common in upper nobility in 1350s. There after they become more common decade by decade and filter down to the lower classes. By the 1370s it was not uncommon for nobles and knights to own several breastplates to equip their men as well. The partial inventory of the Earl of March's goods in London at this time show him having almost the same number of COPs as he had breastplates, seemingly one BP specifically for himself the rest for his men. He also had more or less the makings of several full suits to go with these COPs and Breastplates. One problem we face with text evidence is lack of detail. We have no idea for sure how an object looks. Often breastplate is all that is given so could be covered or uncovered and we'd never know. That said corazza, meaning breastplate and corazzina, meaning little breastplate does make a fairly useful and period difference between the two items but this is more or less an italian practice from what I have seen and to be honest I have not gotten a decent chance to look deeply into Italian primary sources.... just as I find time.
Joe,
Period Brig plates often are tinned.
RPM
|
|
|
|
|
|
Brett White
|
| Posted: Wed 27 May, 2009 3:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
Have a look at this link. It is my favorite brigandine so far. I was actually disappointed when I found it as I was in the process of designing one that is much the same as this one thinking it was new and original. I think it fills the gap between "traditional" brigandine and full plate quite nicely.
http://www.truehearth.com/mod_churburg_bp.jpeg
|
|
|
|
|
Brian Hook
|
| Posted: Thu 28 May, 2009 1:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Brett White wrote: | Have a look at this link. It is my favorite brigandine so far. I was actually disappointed when I found it as I was in the process of designing one that is much the same as this one thinking it was new and original. I think it fills the gap between "traditional" brigandine and full plate quite nicely.
http://www.truehearth.com/mod_churburg_bp.jpeg |
Brett that is not a brigandine, it's a "sport" reproduction of the Churburg 13 segmented breast plate which is a mid to late 14th Century piece of armour. The brigandine appeared around the 14th century and stayed around till well into the 16th. It consists on small plates riveted to a textile shell. Take a look at the pictures Ben Van Koert posted and you'll see the difference.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Brett White
|
| Posted: Thu 28 May, 2009 2:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Brian Hook wrote: | | Brett that is not a brigandine, it's a "sport" reproduction of the Churburg 13 segmented breast plate which is a mid to late 14th Century piece of armour. The brigandine appeared around the 14th century and stayed around till well into the 16th. It consists on small plates riveted to a textile shell. Take a look at the pictures Ben Van Koert posted and you'll see the difference. |
I do know the difference, I was more trying to show a "half ground" between the two.
I was under the impression that there were much earlier examples of brigandines than that. I was sure I saw a reference to one from around the 12th century.
"My sword has deus vault engraved on the blade, his has sharp end toward enemy." -Ash a secret history.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This is a standard topic