Identification Help: 16th C. English/Scottish/ Rapier? Fake? -- myArmoury.com

Joel S.

Allan Senefelder · Industry Professional

Joel, i'm no sword expert but it looks like an early smallsword maybe late 17th century . It looks real enough to my eye
but there are folks with more expertise here that can probably give you a better feel for it .

Bill Grandy · myArmoury Team

Joel,
That is a beautiful piece, and if it's a fake, it's a VERY nice fake.

How long's the blade, and how much appr. does it weigh? It looks to me like a transitional rapier/smallsword, those that existed at the end of the 17th century and into to 18th. The designs look very English to me, though it's often hard to pinpoint that sort of thing.

Joel S. · Posted: Fri 18 Jun, 2004 8:59 am Post subject:

Hello Bill,

If it's a short sword...it's a very long short sword: blad is approx 34" (from top of hilt to tip)

Weighs approx: 1 lb / .8 oz

Most of the weight is distributed to the handle, so it makes it very easy to use/maneuver. I have held fencing swords and this feels similar. Very light towards the end, but heavy at the hilt. Solid throughout, not loose.

Joel

William Goodwin · Posted: Fri 18 Jun, 2004 9:48 am Post subject:

Does appear to be a small-sword (date?) and a very nice one at that.

Stephen Fisher where are you? He'd be the man to have a better evaluation of this.

Bill Grandy · myArmoury Team

Hi Joel,
The smallsword is a specific type of duelling sword, most popular in the 18th century. A 34" blade sounds right. And while there's no way for me to be certain from photos, I think it looks too nice to be a fake. In fact, to make a modern repro as nice as what you have, it would possibly sell for fairly close to the same amount as an antique, making it not worth the trouble of trying to fake.

It's a beautiful piece, and if I had the money, I'd be very interested in purchasing it myself. Good luck!

Bill Grandy · myArmoury Team

And by the way, the reason I'd guessed it was a transitional sword was because the blade looked a little long, and the cross section is one I've seen on transitional blades before.

But now that you've described the weight and length, I'm more inclined to say it's not a transitional rapier, but a "full out" smallsword.

Joel S. · Posted: Fri 18 Jun, 2004 10:16 am Post subject:

Hi Bill,

That's very interesting. I was mistaking "small-sword"...for "short sword", I guess that goes back to my D&D roots when I was younger. Pardon me for not reading correctly.

I should stop posting the word "fake", unless well known auctioneers have been duped, then I feel confident 90-95% of the items I have are genuine, if not 100%.

I just don't know the tell tale signs that master blacksmith's use in forgery. I don't believe any of the items I have were purchased for excessive amounts though. So, like you said, a waste of time to fake.

My brother-in-law makes chain mail and also has a website concerning armour and such, he said the same thing.

He spends hours and hours with the patterns, when he told me what he "guessed" would be a price for some of his pieces (he doesn't sell them), he then commented on how modern work can cost you plenty as well.

thank you.

E.B. Erickson · Industry Professional

Hi Joel,
That's a very decent sword! Whether one would call it a transitional rapier or a transitional smallsword is a coin toss! At any rate, it's mid to late 1600s. The grip may not be original, but it looks OK where it is.

I especially like the piercing and chiselling on the shells and rings/quillon block; above average quality from what you usually see!

--ElJay

Don Stanko · Posted: Mon 21 Jun, 2004 7:29 pm Post subject:

Definitely a re-wrapped grip. I am sure of it. Not an uncommon feaure in these types of swords and does not significantly detract from value. Nice chisel features on the guard. Patina looks good.

Stephen A. Fisher · Posted: Wed 30 Jun, 2004 12:10 pm Post subject:

Hi Joel,

Did you buy this sword?

Here are some pictures of the sword when it was auctioned on Ebay some time ago.

Stephen A. Fisher · Posted: Wed 30 Jun, 2004 12:24 pm Post subject:

Here is an example of a similar transitional rapier for you....

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/4609.html
from Czerny's

William Pace · Posted: Wed 30 Jun, 2004 12:46 pm Post subject:

Either way, it's a pretty piece of work.