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Mark Millman
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Posted: Tue 17 Feb, 2009 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Alain,
On Monday 16 February 2009, you wrote: | Paul, that's interesting info about the bayonet charges vs. clubbing, but I'm curious what you mean by they were drilled to "use the point in preference". Does that mean that they would poke or jab the enemy with the barrel itself? |
He means the opposite--that is, even when issued bayonets and instructed to fix them for combat, soldiers not specifically trained to do otherwise preferred to club their weapons. To prevent their doing that, they were drilled in thrusting with the bayonet, so that it replaced clubbing as their "natural" action in hand-to-hand combat. They would not have thrust with bare barrels. If lacking bayonets, they would indeed have clubbed their firearms, swinging them to strike with the butts at the risk of breaking them off, or perhaps would have thrust with the butts, which is less viscerally satisfying--a surprisingly important consideration--but which can be at least as effective as clubbing and is certainly less risky for the weapon.
I hope that this proves helpful.
Best,
Mark Millman
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David Teague
Location: Anchorage, Alaska Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 409
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Posted: Tue 17 Feb, 2009 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Hello All,
I tried to find a photo progression of a American Rifleman attempting to club a British soldier that two reenactors posted online at another forum in the last 2 years or less...
Haven't found them yet. If I do I'll post em.
This is what they showed.
The British high guard position of the time frame has the musket held shoulder height musket butt held in the right hand, forearm in the left hand. The musket with bayonet is close to 7 feet in length, an American longrifle can run between 4- 5 feet in length and when held in the mids end up being around a 3-4 foot club. The musket has a much, much longer reach.
Here was the problem with the photo progression, they had the rifleman attack the Soldier, not parry his musket aside first to close measure... One dead rifleman.
Cheers,
David
This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.
Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild
"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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James R.Fox
Location: Youngstowm,Ohio Joined: 29 Feb 2008
Posts: 253
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Posted: Mon 23 Feb, 2009 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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Sirs-many American units were Militia units using their own guns, meaning the so-called trade gun, which were smooth-bore 20 gage shotguns.A trade gun could be gotton from any trading post for 144 beaver pelts, which any settler with half a brain could get..Loaded with bird or buck shot they put food on the ttable loaded with 3 00 buckshot and a ball they put indians and redcoats on the ground. As any vet can tell you the Army and Marines still use shotguns for close-in fighting, like street-fighting snd clearing brush.This made them just the thing for ambushes, which is how most Revolutionary battles were won,and a settler couldn't afford a 15 or 20 pound rifles anyway,and probably never saw that much money in one place in his life, since he lived in an agricultural subsistance economy.
Ja68ms
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Perry L. Goss
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Posted: Mon 23 Feb, 2009 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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Alain:
Do not think anyone has given you these. Track yes. But these guys are some of the best in the US. Period. Just lurk for a bit, you will learn a ton of material. The Colonial Williamsburg folks are in here too, just to name a small portion. These two sites below are the myArmoury of the black powder world.
Thanks.
http://www.americanlongrifles.org/forum/ Mostly a builder's forum, but other items as well.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/fusionbb.php Covers many areas from match lock to percussion.
Scottish: Ballentine, Black, Cameron, Chisholm, Cunningham, Crawford, Grant, Jaffray, MacFarlane, MacGillivray, MacKay-Reay/Strathnaver, Munro, Robertson, Sinclair, Wallace
Irish/Welsh: Bodkin, Mendenhall, Hackworth
Swiss: Goss von Rothenfluh, Naff von Zurich und Solland von Appenzel
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Nathan A Nickell
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Posted: Thu 12 Mar, 2009 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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Alain D. wrote: | Thank you all so much again for the responses. This is very helpful.
Are the Pedersoli Frontier, Pennsylvania, or Kentucky rifles accurate representations of American long rifles? And when and why did barrel bluing come about? |
Alain,
In short, yes. Pedersoli rifles are decent representations of American long arms from the revolutionary era. I am currently working on a Penn. kit. They are not 100% historically accurate but for their price and ease of finishing I would highly recommend them. Just to drive the point home that everyone else has already touched on, rifles where used during the revolutionary war, mostly by individuals ( ie. snipers) and militia units. Most often riflemen where used as skirmishers when when a unit was on the move or placed at the flanks to pick off officers (see Morgans use of riflemen at Cowpens).
As for bluing, I don't know when that become popular, sorry.
“Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear”
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James Aldrich
Location: Green Bay WI Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 112
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Posted: Fri 13 Mar, 2009 5:32 am Post subject: |
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I can't document this observation; it comes from a conversation with a friend who had a conversation with a long-time gunsmith/armorer for Colonial Williamsburg . . . so, FWIW, that fellow said that in 18th century North America most barrels were left bright, some were browned, and only a few blued. His observations were based on both written records and existing examples.
JSA
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Ian Hutchison
Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 626
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Posted: Fri 13 Mar, 2009 9:17 am Post subject: |
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Here are some custom (US) gun makers whose products are in a whole other league compared to the Indian guns.
http://www.earlyrusticarms.com/ - this guy has great prices for US made semi-custom arms. In fact, the prices between these and the Italian/Indian made guns are so close that, combined with superior quality and authenticity, there is no reason to get a civilian style Italian/Indian gun over this.
Alain, check this guy out. His guns start out at $575 for a kit or $800-900 for a fully completed gun. The lines on his guns are more slender and graceful than on the Indian weapons (not to mention they are made out of the right kind of wood) and closer to the real deal. That's really my only concern about the Indian made guns, they are perfectly safe and the price is right but they don't quite look or feel right. The dimensions are normally a little large, they are a bit heavier, and the wood-to-metal fit isn't usually very good. They also use an Indian rose wood unknown to the US.
http://www.palongrifles.com/index.html - Very nice work. Fancier and more costly than the above link. This guy uses wood with great grain and can do very skillful carving.
'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Lin Robinson
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Posted: Fri 13 Mar, 2009 10:16 am Post subject: |
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James Aldrich wrote: | I can't document this observation; it comes from a conversation with a friend who had a conversation with a long-time gunsmith/armorer for Colonial Williamsburg . . . so, FWIW, that fellow said that in 18th century North America most barrels were left bright, some were browned, and only a few blued. His observations were based on both written records and existing examples.
JSA |
You may be referring to Wallace Gusler, who was the curator of the gunsmithing shop at Williamsburg for many years. He has since moved on to other endeavors in the field, but is still considered among the finest makers of long rifles in the world.
While Gusler was at Williamsburg, he produced a video entitled, appropriately enough, "The Gunsmith of Williamsburg". It is an excellent introduction to the craft, as it follows the entire process of making an early Virginia rifle from the iron skelps and unsawn plank, to casting the brass fittings, assembling the lock, etc. Gusler's belief was that most of the early Virginia rifles were left bright and he was able to document that pretty well. Bluing was almost unknown at the time but browning was common. Both are a controlled rusting process which works to protect and beautify the metal.
The shop no longer constructs complete rifles, but when it did there was a long waiting list for the finished products, which could run $10,000 or more. I have never seen one in the flesh, aside from those which are still kept in the shop, but do have some detailed photos of one a friend of mine saw in Florida some years ago. I may try to scan some to post here.
The Williamsburg shop, when it was making complete guns, produced every single part that went into the gun from the raw materials. All the springs for the gunlocks and the screws which held everything together were made on site. If you can find a copy of the video I highly recommend it.
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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