[Matthew Amt]

Okay, I'll chime in due to popular demand, though I'm not sure how much help it will be. Yes, my Legio XX site mentions references to the Roman subarmalis/thoracomachus, though at the moment I frankly don't recall all the research that went into that page! Besides the Anonymous description of the thoracomachus, the subarmalis is mentioned in (I believe) an equipment list of some sort. First century AD, maybe early 2nd century. Mike Bishop and probably a few people on RAT have better details at their fingertips. Anyway, there was a modern authority who came to the conclusion that "subarmalis" in that context probably referred to some sort of weapon, but Mr. Bishop appeared to have much better reasons for taking it as what we think of it as, a garment made to be worn under armor.

I'm pretty sure there is one other reference to subarmalis or Roman padding of some sort, though I just can't remember it, sorry! I don't think there's anything in Polybius, though. The other indication of padding under lorica segmentata is that moden repros worn without padding tend to show angled stress in the horizontal connecting straps on the breastplates, *which the originals do not show*. Padding the shoulders raises those plates and makes them hang straighter, alleviating that angled stress. However, there is a LONG discussion on RAT about this, with much familiar fur flying, and I don't think I followed the whole thing so there could very well be something I am missing.

My websites are often generalized and condensed since they are just intended to be "how-to" guides focusing on the hardware itself, rather than exhaustive academic analysis. Tempting as it is to include more raw data and analysis, I tend to keep in mind the rule, "The more you write, the less they'll read!"

For what it's worth, I see the Roman references as a sign of continuity in the use of padding under armor, since they are separated by several centuries. That does NOT necessarily support padding under armor in EARLIER times (Roman Republic, etc.), though it's at least a little better reason to suspect padding used later. BUT I also am wary of thinking, "Well, the Romans had it, so later folks must have as well!" The mention of hairy hides to pad against snakes is fascinating! To me, it just screams that such an idea was NOT widespread, or the hero would simply have said, "Well, I'll just wear the padding that goes under my mail!" He had to make something new up. Could almost be evidence of absence, eh?

I think it was Erik Schmid who suggested padded linings integral to mailshirts to me, or it may have been a conclusion based on Roman hamatae which are often (though NOT always!) shown in artwork with a border or edging of some sort.

Bottom line, I agree that there is no good evidence on the immediate subject, so that's how I'd go with a strict interpretation. If we're only talking *possibiblities*, however...

Matthew

[Jean Henri Chandler]

Hi Matthew, haven't seen you around in a while

[Gary Teuscher]

You know Jean, translation is a huge issue here. I think one thing that we have to be careful of is we have a few padded garments or padded armour who's names have evolved into standard garment, though they were originally names for the padded armour.

Here's two:

kavadion - Byzantine, - I think the eaxct interpretaion is a garment made of valuable textiles, was a padded underarmour, another more current interpretation fo it is just a coat.

treyja - was mentioned earlier in this thread. Means a sweater now, getting it's name when apparently the design of the military treyja became fashionable as civilian wear.

I guess my point here is perhaps we should be careful and look closely if a translation mentions a warrior wearing a coat of some sort.

[Jean Henri Chandler]

There is also a type of quilted / padded garment worn in China and on the Steppes by Tartars, Huns, Kipcheks etc. both for warmth and as light armor, called the Kaftan. The Eastern Vikings would definitely have been exposed to this as well.

Here is an article about Eastern padded armor and under-armor:

http://www.geocities.com/normlaw/page1.html

His opening comments seem very relevant to our discussion:

[Jean Henri Chandler]

Here is another contemporary form of islamic quilted padded armor / under-armor garment called a Jibbah. This is essentially a military kaftan.

[Daniel Staberg]

[Jean Henri Chandler]

Here are two Chinese panoplies incorporating textile armor analagous to the type of 'military kaftan' the guy on the Silk Roads Armory wesbite was talking about, I'm not sure what era these are but I believe the same basic type of textile armor goes back to the Bronze Age in China.



These two panoplies would not be contemporaneous to the VIking era I'm sure of course.

J

[Dan Howard]

I'm still waiting for something that dates before the Middle Ages. There are plenty of examples of arming garments being worn under mail in the Middle Ages and beyond. They had telescopes and cannons during the Reianssaance. Does that mean that the Romans must have had them too? They had the skill and the materials to make them.

[Jean Henri Chandler]

[Mikael Ranelius]

[Elling Polden]

Sources on chineese, middle eastern, roman, or even byzantine cloth armour still does not mean that cloth armour was in common use in northern europe. (which is the topic of this thread)
Unless one can establish a solid source on either cloth armour use in the region, or the wholesale adoptation of military techonology that used them, it is still just guesses.

There is no indication of such a adoption of byzantine military technology, so we can't asume that it was the case.

A seperate thread on early cloth armour would probably be in order.

[Jean Henri Chandler]

[Ste Kenwright]

I wouldn't want to get told off for being off topic, but to help on the direct question about sources for the Roman 'subarmalis'. I am uncertain as to the precise identification as a fabric garment worn below armour, as I think 'terms' for garments and armour were used very loosely until much later in history.

In the above quoted passage of Saxo Grammaticus' Gesta Danorum L. IX from the middle paragraph (Oliver Elton's translation):
Ragnar, learning from men who travelled to and fro how the matter stood, asked his nurse for a woolen mantle, and for some thigh-pieces that were very hairy, with which he could repel the snake-bites. He thought that he ought to use a dress stuffed with hair to protect himself, and also took one that was not unwieldy, that he might move nimbly. And when he had landed in Sweden, he deliberately plunged his body in water, while there was a frost falling, and, wetting his dress, to make it the less penetrable, he let the cold freeze it.

I believe specific Saxo Grammaticus use of 'subarmalis' are GESTA DANORUM, LIBER IV:
Amlethus, cognita fraude, metum dissimulanter habuit, ducentisque equitibus in comitatum receptis, subarmalem vestem indutus obsequitur invitanti maluitque regiae simulationi periculose parere quam turpiter repugnare. Adeo honestatem in cunctis observandam putabat. Quem comminus obequitantem rex sub ipsa bipatentium portarum testudine adortus iaculo transegisset, ni ferrum subarmalis togae durities repulisset.

But Amleth, having learnt the deceit, dissembled his fear, took a retinue of two hundred horsemen, put on an under- shirt (of mail), and complied with the invitation, preferring the peril of falling in with the king's deceit to the shame of hanging back. So much heed for honour did he think that he must take in all things. As he rode up close, the king attacked him just under the porch of the folding doors, and would have thrust him through with his javelin, but that the hard shirt of mail threw off the blade.

and LIBER VII:
Tum vero conspectissimum virtutis argumentum exhibuit. Quippe subarmali tantum subucula fretus inermem telis thoracem opposuit.

It was then that he gave a notable exhibition of valour; for defended only by a shirt under his shoulders, he fronted the spears with unarmed breast.

The description I refer to in my post on the topic 'Thoromachus' (thoracomachus) of the garment being 'a finger thick' is from the anonymous C6th Byzantine Treatise on Strategey Section 16 (George T. Dennis (Ed. and Transl.), 1985, Three Byzantine Military Treatises, Washington). It's called a himation (tunic).
"Armor for the head, breastplates, and shin guards should be heavy enough to ward off injury nut not so heavy as to be burdensome and wear down the strength of the soldiers before they get into action. These should provide protection not only because of their material strength but because of their design and their smoothness, which should cause missiles to glance off and fall to the ground. There should also be a space between the armor and the body. It should not be worn directly over ordinary clothing, as some do to keep down the weight of the armor, but over a garment at least a finger thick (daktylos)... The rest of the troops may be provided with coats of mail, breastplates and head coverings fashioned of felt or leather... so that the rough material does not chafe the skin, they should wear padded garments (peristedidia, lit. 'cheast-wrappers') under them, as we recommend for iron breastplates and other items."

In that post I also give the reference for Mike Bishop's article on this subject.

'Subarmalo' appears in the inventory on the Vindolanda Tablet 184, but in a fragmentory section.

'Subarmalis', is used in the Scriptores Historiae Augustae VI 1.1 (perhaps late C4th), but I haven't tracked down the quote for you yet. Perhaps it's time to knock off anyway, I wouldn't want to overdo it...

Hope that helps

[Jean Henri Chandler]

[Dan Howard]

[Dan Howard]

[Jean Henri Chandler]

[Daniel Staberg]

Jean,
Can I assume that I and any other who like Dan woudl like to see evidence and sources for the viking use of padded garments under mail that would pass muster in an academic ccontext are also " intellectually dishonest"?

As some one with a degree in Archeology & history I have still to see valid historical evidence that the vikings used padded garments with their mail. Evidence that other cultures, some of which were incontact with the vikings, is not evidence that the vikings did so. The Byzantines use greek fire, composite bows, horse archers, kataphracts and elaborate army formations in the period in question. All of which any intelligent & practicaly minded warrior would recognise brought considerable advantages in battle. Yet we don't find any evidence that the vikings using those things just as there is no evidence that the vikings used byzantine style armour padding. The cultural, economic and technological factors needed to reproduce any of the above seems not have existed in 9th to 11th century Scandiniavia.

[Jean Henri Chandler]

[Bill Grandy]

Gentlemen, this thread is starting to cross the line between debate and venom. Make your point, state your evidence, and do not make personal attacks.

Jean Henri Chandler: If you have a personal problem with Dan Howard, fine. But don't bring it into this thread. Feel free to debate him anywhere you disagree, but do not start bringing in past experiences or judgements of his character.