[James R.Fox]

Sirs- Does anyone know anything about the thoromachus-a sleveless gambeson the Romans wore under their Lorica Hamata and Lorica Squmata. I couldnt find anything direct on the Lorica Segmentata, but my source, Adrian Goldsworthy said he can;t imagine anyone wearing any armour w/o some kind of gambeson. I do know that the Celts, from whom the Romans got alot of their military squipment often wore a padded leather jacket as their only armour, at least the lower classes did.As to their fighting naked, this was done as a religious invocation to the gods of war by csrtain dedicated warrior bands, not as a general thing. Also, when classical authors describe men fighting naked, they often mean men too poor to afford metal armour.Which makes sense, otherwise, why would the Celts invent mail to begin with?

[Matthew Amt]

[Lafayette C Curtis]

Lately I've been infected with a very invasive and contagious historical bug with the fatal consequence that I keep wanting to look at all those accounts of Celts fighting "naked" in their original languages, especially in Greek ones. This is especially important because gymnos naked and psilos naked can mean quite different things--the former means literally naked, while the latter more commonly just means "unarmored" when used in a military context--but they're often translated into English as "naked" without any attempts at making distinctions between the two.

[Dan Howard]

Often a person is described as "naked" when their legs and privates were covered but their upper body was not - i.e. we would say "topless".

[Sean Manning]

[Matthew Amt]

Yes, a very interesting idea which definitely needs to be looked at more closely! One complication is that in the 18th century "naked" was used to describe soldiers who were not appropriately uniformed or equipped. So they might have trousers and shirts, but if lacking coats and hats they might be called "naked". This usage does not necessarily descend from the ancient, of course, BUT some of those translations were done in the 18th century!! So word usage has changed since the translations were done, and any research being done needs to be careful not to be mislead by outdated works (including glossaries). We get the same kind of effect with words like "scarlet" (originally just meaning "bright"), "coat of mail" used to translate words that really just mean "body armor", etc.

So go for it! I'd certainly love to see more. Valete,

Matthew

[James R.Fox]

Sirs This was what I was referring to when I said the Classical Authors often referred to when they say the Celts,or whoever, were fighting naked. That is it's a translation error meaning w/o proper Greek or Roman metal armour.I found the reference to the Illyrians and Celts using heavy padded jackets covered With leather, but I cant find the book offhand. It was an archaeological study of some greek and Illyrian graves fron the mountains of southern Albanir that had frozen so the leather and cloth were preserved. They made helmets that was too.

[Stephen Curtin]

Hi James, I think that we would be all interested in seeing the reference you speak of, if you could please find it. I remember reading in an Osprey title about the picts that they may have (and I repeat MAY HAVE) used some form of padded armour but this is also from a later period I believe.

[Matthew Amt]

[Ste Kenwright]

I believe the main literary reference for Roman padding used under armour is from the late (C4th-5th) anonymous text , De Rebus Bellicis, XV, apparently something like:
"The ancients, among the many things which... they devised for use in war, prescribed also the thoracomachus to counteract the weight and friction of armour... This type of garment is made of thick sheep's wool felt to the measure... of the upper part of the human frame...in case the weight of the thoracomachus should be increased when it is sodden with rain and should therefore hamper the wearer it will certainly be advisable to wear on top of it a similar garment made of well-prepared Libyan fleeces to the cut of the thorachomachus".

The main problem with this reference is that the author is writing with ideas to improve the army and government of the day, and the existence of some of the innovations has been questioned, such as the infamous inflatable bridge, so the content must be treated with caution. For example, it is by no means clear who specifically are 'the ancients'. The thoracomachus has been associated with the (earlier?) term 'subarmalis' and with the epilorikon?, peristedidion? of later 'Byzantine' armies, including more references in military manuals which say you need 'a finger thick'.

The interpretation of the text, modern experiment and theorising, the translation of 'felt' and what that and Libyan hide meant at the time has been debated at great length on Roman Army Talk. M.C. Bishop, "Aketon, Thoracomachus, and Lorica Segmentata", in Exercitus: the Bulletin of the Ermine Street Guard vol. 3 no. 1 (1995) is given as a useful reference for the issue, but have not read it myself.

To echo sentiments from the rather heavy thread here about the possibilities of 'Viking' equivalents, we all have to choose our own interpretations to fill in the evidence-poor blanks of re-enactment and I truly believe that it matters a lot less what they are and much more that we or somebody in one's group can explain one's decision if someone is interested . As a late Roman re-enactor with Comitatus in the UK, I wear essentially a padded tunic which fits my mail exactly, (without 'old fashioned' pteryges, which I think look smarter on officers), because even padded weapons hurt me when flung from a charging horseman! Very hot!

Hope that's helpful

[Len Parker]

Here's a good pic of one: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2e/1e/8b/2e1e8bdcf6d902f29f46b4a15cc0a2fb.jpg

[Len Parker]

I'm looking for pics of these without armour. The guy on left is without armour, but I don't know the context: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/17/c9/62/17c962b71ce2b822c5f587735e916d9b.jpg

Here's a Bosporon cavalryman: https://pp.vk.me/c622323/v622323006/106fb/W4aM_Y4tMfM.jpg Could be lamellar, not sure.

There's this guy with long sleeves: https://imgur.com/gallery/dzreTVm Does anyone know where this is from?

[Dan Howard]

[Matthew Amt]

We don't really know what any of those are depicting. Some could just be a bunched-up or pleated tunic. Some, especially the cuirass-shaped object standing by itself--*might* be quilted armor, but being a later-era relief it's already stylized, and may just be a "melt-down" of earlier artwork that was already ambiguous. Beware!

Matthew

[Len Parker]

Here's two more: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c3/07/7f/c3077f2469cfccf4caf3df4c66819fb0.jpg and https://romanrecruit.weebly.com/subarmalis.html

[Len Parker]

Looking at these roman busts, I would say you're probably right about pleated tunics: https://www.pinterest.com/mkpro114/romans/

[Matthew Amt]

Another part of the whole problem is that you don't even WANT that much padding under armor. A little on the shoulders is good, otherwise just something to keep your tunic clean and unchafed. Beyond that, padding just adds heat, plus bulk which means the armor has to be too large--that adds weight and restricts movement. Soaks up sweat and rain, gets icky.

Now, if they're making a case for *stand-alone* quilted armor, that's a possibility, but it would sure be nice to have more literary evidence to back it up. I'm not quite ready to buy it, but I admit that's partly a knee-jerk reaction since it doesn't fit the older mental image of Roman armor!

Matthew

[Len Parker]

Here's good evidence for standalone quilted armour: https://books.google.com/books?id=uqe2CYsDEEcC&pg=PA101&lpg=PA101&dq=julius+caesar+made+tunics+of+felt+quilts+and+hides&source=bl&ots=sp4Zmcc87C&sig=ACfU3U325jv1cQuOcaZ-1lyExcMyX-7LGQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiV8a-6ifPiAhVyT98KHQgEDEoQ6AEwCnoECAkQAQ

Notice he says almost ALL the soldiers had made tunics or coverings out of felt, quilts or hides.

Thanks to Graham Sumner for pointing this out on RAT.

[Dan Howard]

[Stephen Curtin]

I'm not sure that this source is strong evidence of ancient Roman soldiers using stand alone quilted armour. It seems more like some kind of improvised defence against missile weapons. Also I wonder what word was translated to "quilts"?