[Danny Grigg]

Does anyone have any information about the type of sword in the following link?
Has this type of sword been published in any books?

Its look like a Polearm head has been mounted onto a long handle so it can be used as a single handed weapon.
The head looks similar to a "Kriegsgertel", "English Bill", "Roncone" or "Kriegssense/War Scythe".


http://www.czernys.com/auctions_lot.php?oggetto=26689&asta=22


There's another similar sword at the following link.
It looks even stranger with a "Military Fork" type head combined with a "Bill head".

http://www.czernys.com/auctions_lot.php?oggetto=26687&asta=22



I know there have been discussions before about strange medieval European weapons and I've read through some of the posts, but I haven't come across anything like the above before.

If anyone has pictures of other similar swords please post.


Thanks

Danny


PS Pictures of Kriegsgertels can be found in the following books:

Europäische Hieb- und Stichwaffen by Hartmut Kolling & Heinrich Muller
The Halberd And Other European Polearms 1300-1650 by George Snook
A Glossary Of The Construction....Arms And Armor by George Cameron Stone

[D. Austin]

Wow. Thanks for alerting us to them. I love them. Both look much like agricultural bills to me, although obviously intended for a military application. The first looks like some scary torture implement and the second, well let's just say it's awesome! I want one. It appears as though the socket which holds the fork to the bill originally had something else attached to the base of it. There is a slot with holes either side of it, like part of a hinge. I'd love to know more. Hopefully someone can enlighten us.

I just pity the poor craftsman who's asked to create a scabbard for that fork/bill/sword.

[David E. Farrell]

wow - those are pretty cool. Not actually the wierdest weapons from Italy that I have seen, but they are certainly up there.

The dates given with them seem to coincide pretty well with the period where all kinds of wacky polearms were being made for use by foot soldiers against heavily armoured cavalry (and each other). Things that combines aspects of the fork, the halberd, the partisan, spear, etc. Armi Bianchi Italiane (a rare book to find) has some other wacky examples - but none that look exactly like these - in particular the short handles on these pieces I find interesting. These are sort of like updates of the 'medieval chopper' like is seen in the Mac. Bible.

I'd definitely be interested to see others like these. It would be interesting to see what sort of makers marks are on there or what other information is available about them. in particular if there is evidence of modifications to allow a handle rather than a pole (though in the second example this seems to not be likely, in the first I would love to know if the handle is original... seems very well preserved for a 500 year old chunk of wood).

[Sean Flynt]

Polearms in particular were subject to alteration over the decades because they had such a large and vulnerable wooden component (the haft) and because they became militarily obsolete long before they rotted and rusted away. They became largely ceremonial by 1600, though the process began much earlier. Some of them are very finely crafted, so there's a strong collectible aspect, but they're also a challenge to display in museums and private collections. All that adds up to lost, discarded or shortened and/or replaced hafts, and re-purposing as ceremonial objects and common tools.

Consider this Küse (aka, glaive, glefe, couteau de breche) from the bodygaurd of Maximilian I. That's a classic guard's polearm, but mounted on an ornate grip for ceremonial use (rendering it largely useless as a weapon,) probably after its service to Max. The Italian pieces in question have a similar treatment, and I would guess that they were rehafted in this manner somewhat later than the Küse, either for ceremonial use after the time when guards would be expected to actually use their weapons, or simply to satisfy a collector who had an unmounted but attractive polearm head. Notice that the second example is identified as being 17th c., long after such a thing would have been of use on the battlefield. I have no explanation for the elaborate mechanism at the top of the blade, but it might have been added when the haft was shortened, to create some kind of specialized tool.

[David E. Farrell]

thanks for the clarification on the second piece Sean, I missed the date on that.

[Marc Pengryffyn]

The fork on that second bill makes me think of a rest for a musket or arquebus, especially since its mounted transverse to the blade, again for ceremonial guard use perhaps. But at 124cm it's probably too short for that use. Unless the haft was originally longer. But there seems to be a square metal butt-plate/ pommel on the thing, and the haft looks like it might be riveted-slab construction. That makes me wonder if it was originally constructed to be this length, rather than being a repurposed pole-arm? None of this explains the slot with holes at the base of the fork attachment that D. Austin mentioned...

Just hoping to jog some more knowledgeable forumite's imagination! Fascinating items, thanks for posting them Danny!

[Lafayette C Curtis]

Those re-hafted bills look like they'd make pretty nice pruning hooks if they had indeed been converted into tools....

[James R.Fox]

Sirs-Remember that many of the big Ita;ian city-states of east and south Italy were naval powers, Venice, Ravenna, Genoa, Naples, concerned with putting down piracy,(or comitting it).That first bill in particular looks to be just the thing for a marine trying to climb aboard another ship. You have a parrying and striking weapon at one go.

[Marc Pengryffyn]

[Ivo Malz]

[Steven H]

[Jean-Carle Hudon]

If the provenance wasn't so clearly indicated as being italian, I would of thought that both these pieces resemble the tools used in Indias to ride elephants... The auction house describe them both as being gisarmes, which makes sense as the inside of the curved section would be sharp, used by infantry to cut tendons of horses, though guisarmes were apparently popular tools for defending and assaulting fortified positions.

[William Carew]

There is evidence for similar weapons from the medieval period. The choppers from the Maciejowski Bible spring to mind. And take a look at the weapon being held by the left hand figure in the enclosed image - very similar to the first item in the OP: http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/gallery2/main.p...temId=6397

[Kjell Magnusson]

[Bruno Giordan]

The catalogue says: Tirri collection, part One, Oriental weapons. Then Provenance : Italy , Epoch: 1500. On a lower note one has also Provenance: Malacrida collection.So it is not clear if they are part of an oriental weapons collection by a Mr Tirri, or by a Mr Malacrida. All the other weapons of this lot are oriental, anyway.

[James R.Fox]

Sirs- I found the first weapon It's a Venitian fauchard,cut down for one-hand use,probably for a Marine. It's lllustrated in George Cameron Stone's" Glossary of the,Construction Decoration and use of Arms and Armour" under Fauchard I've said before, don't leave home w/o this book.

[William Carew]