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Hendrik De Coster
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 Posted: Thu 06 Nov, 2008 11:51 am Post subject: any information about bourgondian armybanners? |
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hello all
for my reanactmengroup i have the task to see if a lot off stuff is historical and not,what brought me to our flag, that wasn't historical at all.
| Quote: | In his earliest wars, Charles had levied Flemish citizen pikemen, equipped with jack and Sallet helmet, from the towns of the Low Countries. Though they had in the past scored victories over men-at-arms, they were a military disappointment, and as argumentative and unwilling as the feudal men-at-arms, so were replaced in later years by mercenary pikemen, some of them probably from the same area. To judge by pictures, these latter were rather more heavily armoured, but still failed to stand up to the Swiss.
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Charles seems to have aimed at a degree of uniformity, at least among the troops of the Ordinance. The men-at-arms were ordered to wear blue and white plumes (the Ducal colors) and were supplied with red crosses of Burgundy, made of velvet, to attach to their armour. The Coustilliers and archers were given surcoats half white and half blue, again with the red cross, and there is evidence from the end of the reign that infantry of the Ordinance also wore blue and white Ducal uniform.
The red cross of Burgundy, strictly two ragged staffs crossed, but also appearing as crossed arrows or a red "X", would probably be worn by other troops as a field sign, and appeared on most of the flags. On the latter, the other universal emblem was a stylised flint-and-steel, usually emitting sparks.
The Duke evidently also wished to standardise flags; the companies of men-at-arms had cornets of the type shown; each company ensign had its own saint and color, and the squadron cornets followed the same pattern, but with one gold "C" for the first squadron, two for the second, and so on. Unit numbers also appear on some flags.
A favoured symbol was St. George and the dragon; shown on a guard cornet, it also appeared early in the reign on Charles' chief standard, which was then white, and also carried the cross of Burgundy, plus flames etc, and Charles' motto Je I'ay emprins' ("I have undertaken it"). Heraldic banners of individual vassals, or carrying the arms of Charles' territories, were also common, and examples are shown.
I said that i would try to find a historical correct flag for us:)
we're situated in Sichem, which belonged to brabant and as far as i seem to understand also to the burgundian empire
which brings me to my question
does anybody off you knows any burgundian company banners that were used by troops who came or/and fought in flanders or brabant?
+ are they free to use or will i get problems with it?
i guess we would have the blue and white feathers on our helmets then although i find it hard to believe every soldier did this?
the red crosses definitely will be standard on our equipment
thanks in advance:)
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Lafayette C Curtis
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Mathieu Harlaut
Location: Paris-France Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Fri 07 Nov, 2008 4:07 am Post subject: |
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Many Burgundian flags are still visible in museum of Switzerland:
- Solothurn
- Bern
- Uri ...
The best examples of the banners of the company of ordinances are in Bern. There are different sizes unfortunately none are complete.
All of them have been reproduce during the 19th century in several books, "Fahnenbuch". The drawings of the flags are published in a book that is quite difficult to find: “Die Burgunderbeute” (1963)
You will find some modern reproductions of those banners here:
http://www.krigsspil.dk/download/download_2.html
Be careful some are speculative.
Some pictures:
http://www.ugopozzati.it/Bandiere%20Borgogna.htm
The catalogue from the Charles the Bold exhibition of Bern shows a couple of them. They are quite a few flag of a company of ordinances that are in Bern. The exhibition will go in Bruges next year. I don't know if the flags from Bern will go there as well.
I don't see why you would have some problem using those flags. After all the Burgundy state collapsed 500 years ago and you are only doing reenactment.
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Hendrik De Coster
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| Posted: Fri 07 Nov, 2008 8:15 am Post subject: |
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ok thanks guys:)
this already helped me a lot
Lafayette, i did check the article, that's where my qoutes are from=)
the link Mathieu gave me really helped alot:)
does anybody knows about the feathers upon the helmets?some historical artwork or such?
kind regards,hendrik
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Mathieu Harlaut
Location: Paris-France Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Sat 08 Nov, 2008 2:39 am Post subject: |
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According to the first Ordinance of Charles the Bold (Abbeville - 1471) the plumes are worn by men at arms only, ie knights.
However the chef de chambre will wear a small flag (banderolle) on his sallet or armet. This banderolle would have the same colour and design as the banner of the company (escadre) ( St Maximin de Treves - 1473).
Many XVth century artworks show knights with ostrich feathers on their helms. There are also a couple of engravings depicting the burgundian army in formation, feather and small flag are visible on the helmets of the knights, archers and pikemen alike. You will find some of the engraving in the catalogue of the exhibition on Charles the Bold (I assume you speak flemish) :
http://www.kareldestoute.info/nl/individueel_...logus.html
Shear curiosity, what is the name of your group? As I am a member of the Companie of St George, I see that we are on the same side :-)
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Hendrik De Coster
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| Posted: Sat 08 Nov, 2008 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| Mathieu Harlaut wrote: | According to the first Ordinance of Charles the Bold (Abbeville - 1471) the plumes are worn by men at arms only, ie knights.
However the chef de chambre will wear a small flag (banderolle) on his sallet or armet. This banderolle would have the same colour and design as the banner of the company (escadre) ( St Maximin de Treves - 1473).
Many XVth century artworks show knights with ostrich feathers on their helms. There are also a couple of engravings depicting the burgundian army in formation, feather and small flag are visible on the helmets of the knights, archers and pikemen alike. You will find some of the engraving in the catalogue of the exhibition on Charles the Bold (I assume you speak flemish) :
http://www.kareldestoute.info/nl/individueel_...logus.html
Shear curiosity, what is the name of your group? As I am a member of the Companie of St George, I see that we are on the same side :-) |
oh great:d, offcourse i speak flemish:)
i'm a member of the compagnie van de excellente chronycke, translated it means the company of the excellent chronicles or something like that:)
here 's a link to our site although it's far from correct or up to date
the shield will be replaced by a burgundian one, and other stuff:)
where's your company from?
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Lafayette C Curtis
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Mathieu Harlaut
Location: Paris-France Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Sun 09 Nov, 2008 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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My company is from Switzerland, the part that was part of the Duchy of Savoy at that time but under Burgundian influence (all the lords were in the service of Charles the Bold). The group has its origin in the castle of Gransdon, the one of the fateful battle. Now we have members all around Europe from Sweden down to Italy: some Poles, English, French, Germans, Swedes, Italians, Flemish… and even some Swiss:
http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/cms/intro.html
I see that part of your website is in French so someone in your group may be able to read that :
http://legioburgundiae.unblog.fr/
You will find the the full transcription of the ordinances and a few other interesting texts.
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Hendrik De Coster
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| Posted: Sun 09 Nov, 2008 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Mathieu Harlaut wrote: | My company is from Switzerland, the part that was part of the Duchy of Savoy at that time but under Burgundian influence (all the lords were in the service of Charles the Bold). The group has its origin in the castle of Gransdon, the one of the fateful battle. Now we have members all around Europe from Sweden down to Italy: some Poles, English, French, Germans, Swedes, Italians, Flemish… and even some Swiss:
http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/cms/intro.html
I see that part of your website is in French so someone in your group may be able to read that :
http://legioburgundiae.unblog.fr/
You will find the the full transcription of the ordinances and a few other interesting texts. |
oh,you guys;)
i allready knew your club,top of the top they told me:)
i'm flemish but my 2nd language is french so with some effort that works fine for me=)
give my flemish comrades my greetings, or "de groeten"
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