[Bill Grandy]

I've been wondering for years about the quality of MRL's armor. I've seen two helms at a store, but they were behind glass. Regardless, they were surprisingly nice. Most of their stuff is 18 gauge mild steel, making it thin for many WMA uses (though not all, depending on how it's used), but regardless of that, I'd still like to know if anyone has any opinions.

I have one of their bucklers and a rotella (which I believe they label a "renaissance shield"), and both are pretty decent. They are constructed with bolts so you can replace the straps, which takes away from the historical accuracy, though that makes them practical for the modern WMArtist, and the fronts sides are nice

If I hadn't seen the helmets, I would assume the armor was the typical quality associated with Windlass swords. But those helmets were much better quality than some SCA styled helmets that go for twice the price (and probably twice the weight due to the thick gauge requirements). I've spent a bit of time studying original plate armor from behind the glass at museums, and this stuff looks at least superficially good.

Any thoughts?

[Gary Grzybek]

I have an older MRL Sallet that I bought used a while back. It's not too bad but there's some things I don't like about it. The edges of the visor and the the upper portion of the eye slit were left raw and quite sharp. The helm seems to fit too close to my face so I imagine taking a hard hit and those edges cutting deep into my nose :-(

I may open up the eye slits a little and pad the front area to help this problem but for now I'm afraid to actually use it. It certainly makes a nice decorative piece and was well worth the money.

[Allan Senefelder]

Bill , the problem in use that i've dealt with regarding thier bucklers ( I fixed two of them for guys from the new york city
branch of ARMA last summer ) was that the bolts that hold the handle hold the boss on to so in use the holes for these
bolts become the weak point under stress and tear out . It does however make reshaping the boss easy as you can remove the handle and thus the boss . The only things I can tell you regarding thier helmets is that unless somethings changed the leather they use for thier liners is very thin suede that doesn't have eyelts for the thong that adjusts the fit just holes so it tears out pretty easily at this point and that the designer of the helms must have been a welder because
someone with moderate hammer skills would have made these helms in two halves instead of the multi plate layout
of MRL . What I mean is this , take the sallet for example the bowel itself is made up of four welded plates with the
comb/medial ridge made up from two halve and then welded into the bowel then two more pieces to make uo the lower
part of the helm . The visor is made from several plates as well . Theres nothing wrong with welding , a good welds tough
to break I was just never really sure why so many plates were used to make what should be a simple two piece bowel .
Of course it all comes stamped with the ubiquitous INDIA . As far for decorational use I would agree with Gary for the price
your getting your moneys worth and i've recommended them to people for that purpose in the past .

[Bill Grandy]

Thanks, guys.

Yeah, my buckler's lost one of the bolts, but it seems like such an easy thing to fix. If another one looks ready to go, I'll just replace all of them. I will definately say that there a better places to get bucklers for the price, though.

The rotella also uses bolts, but after years of use against different types of weapons (from shinai based weapons to limited steel blunts to rapiers), it's been great. The fact that the staps are removable is good should I ever need to replace them, and others in my group use the same shield and have been able to easily put padding for the back of the hand there.

I don't think I'd trust a Windlass helmet for real use. I really was thinking more for collectors and reenactors. For WMA purposes (aka what I need), it depends on the item. I'm going to order a pair of their new gothic gauntlets from them. They should hold up to limited bouting with wasters and blunts, and look better than hockey gloves. I have a hunch they'll dent and get ugly fairly quickly due to the thin gauge, but this particular design has a lot of fluting, so hopefully that will be kept to a minimum. It's worth an experiment, anyway.

[Bill Grandy]

Out of curiostiy, Gary, what sallet do you have? And how old is it?

[Aaron Justice]

I have an MRL Norman Helm. I'm not certain I'm on the same page as everyone else on this, but I think that this helm at least would be more than capable of taking a wallop. It is definitely heavier that 18 guage, I'm guessing at least 16, MAYBE even 14. Very thick, very heavy. A war hammer spike would probably never be able to puncture it, but of course I would hate to be the one hit by it.

[Chad Arnow]

I have two of their helms. You can see pics in my collection pages (http://www.myArmoury.com/collection_chad.html).

They are great display pieces for sure. They both came coated with rust on the inside. Not a big deal, but an annoyance to clean up.

Construction seems to be solid enough, though. A leather lined and appropriate strapping would probably make it serviceable enough for light duty.

[Allan Senefelder]

Aaron , unless they've changed thier catalog in the last three weeks the norman helm is listed as 18 gauage just like the rest of thier helms . they used to make thier barrel/great helm in 16 but that is now made in 18 gauge as well . The "combat helm " they used to offer withe face bar grill was 16 gauge but they discontinued it a while back .

[Aaron Justice]

I'll take a picture of the inside so you can see it.

[Bill Grandy]

[Allan Senefelder]

Bill's hit on something. If your talking about period weigth construction 18 gauge is pretty much on in terms of yielding a
product thats right in the ball park in most cases but when its time to take that peice out and beat on it every Tuesday at fight practice and every other weekend it going to break down much quicker than a peice made out of 16 gauge . For stricktly dress purposes 18gauge ( MRL) is fine and will even last a few outtings but will fold fairly quick from repeated
use . If your going for stricktly dress for real light use and as long as the product fullfills the level of historical accuracy you need then 18 gauge works fine.

[Bill Grandy]

Allan's very right.

Something else about period design is that, being dished out by hammer, it is different thicknesses where it's necessary. Areas that need extra protection will be thicker than other areas. Mass produced stuff imported from India certainly isn't going to have that kind of detail, at least at MRL's prices.

Nonetheless, there are people who use 18 gauge helms for WMA use. If they aren't hitting full force, 18 gauge will hold up. That said, most people would prefer at least 16 gauge because of the exact reason Allan said: "when its time to take that peice out and beat on it every Tuesday at fight practice and every other weekend it going to break down much quicker".

Note that I'm talking about mild steel, too. Hot rolled spring steel will not break down so quickly, although people generally still prefer at least 16 gauge because of the shock absorbancy more than for the actual helmet strength.

[Allan Senefelder]

Hey Bill , the process used to get plates thicker at key points and thinner where less protection is neccessary is called thinning . The metal in the plate is driven from the area where you don't need as much to the most important point using
directed hammer stokes ( you swing the hammer in such a way that you are pushing with each stroke ) . It's not a ton of
fun as you will have to do many passes to achieve the desired results . The place this is most readily visible is along
the beveled edge of the lames in l'anime type breast plates . Your arms rest at your sides and therefore make landing a meaningfull blow difficult on the sides , not so the front of the chest which is exposed so is you follow the beveled edge of the lames you can see them get thinner twords the sides with thier thickest point at the medial ridge in the plate .

[Bill Grandy]

Thanks for the info, Allan.

Yeah, I've tried my hand at armoring. A couple years ago I met an armorer who let me be his apprentice for a weekend to see how I liked it. I learned a lot, especially the part about how I really don't think I'm cut out for being an armorer. But it was still a lot of fun for a weekend... I certainly could do it professionally. All that dishing and grinding is a lot of work! Hats off to you.