Can anyone help me to identify this please -- myArmoury.com

Jez Mitchell

I was given this by my granddad, he found it in the shed when he moved to a new house. The man that lived there before was in the british navy.
On the blade there is a makers mark showing
"Simpson & Co.
SUHL"
Both the blade and scabbard are stamped with an "M" with a crown on top.
Any information about it, age, what it is (granddad thinks its a dirk) would be appreciated, thanks.

http://www.neldoras.org.uk/pic01.jpg

Bill Tsafa · Posted: Thu 20 May, 2004 8:40 pm Post subject: re: identify blade

looks like a pirate's cutlass. Typicaly short ro be used in close quarter fighting on ships. They typicaly have a lot of brass in the guard and handel to prevent salt water damage. Its a beutiful peice. i recomend some "mettle glow" to protect it from further rust.

Bill Grandy · myArmoury Team

I have to disagree with Vassilis. The idea of a pirate cutlass is more fantasy than fact, simply because piracy wasn't organized enough to have specialized swords. While that doesn't mean it's impossible for such a weapon to have been used by a pirate, that doesn't make it specifically a pirate weapon.

I don't know what it is exactly, though that style of saber hilt looks 19th century. Sabers aren't my specialty, so I can't say for certain, but I have seen many originals. Perhaps it was a broken saber that was ground down to a dirk. I must say it looks very interesting, and it does look authentic, or else a very excellent forgery.

I also strongly advise against the use of Metal Glo. Metal Glo is a polishing paste, and if this is an antique, it will depriciate the value. If you want to protect, use good old fashioned oil and keep it dry.

I hope others here can give you some more ID info.

Stephen A. Fisher · Posted: Thu 20 May, 2004 10:04 pm Post subject:

Hello Jez,

What you have is have is a composite piece. The blade & sheath is from a German m1898/05 "Butcher" bayonet. As for the sabre hilt, it looks to be German as well, but I can't give you a positive id on it.

You will find my pictures below. The one on top is the m1898/05 bayonet.

best,
Stephen

Jez Mitchell · Posted: Fri 21 May, 2004 12:57 am Post subject:

Thanks Steve, I have posted this up on other sites, and no one has yet to give me anything useful apart from you, although the blade of the bayonet is remarkably similar it seems to be slightly thicker and the mark is also different. I would guess that the bayonet would be reasonably standardised. Would it be possible for the manufacturer to change stamp? I have to admit that I don’t know much about this....

Steve Fabert · Posted: Fri 21 May, 2004 4:04 am Post subject:

Simpson & Co of Suhl was one of the many makers of bayonets for German military rifles in the late 19th-early 20th century. Their mark often appears on bayonets used with Mauser rifles exported to other countries. The company also made some civilian firearms, and was one of the producers of Luger pistols.

I have never seen this sort of bayonet blade with a sword hilt, so I can't say if it's something the Simpson firm did originally or a custom modification.

I believe Simpson & Co. were acquired by Krieghoff in 1932, so it's unlikley the mark was used after that date.

Alexi Goranov · myArmoury Alumni

Hi Jez,

I have to agree with Steve and Stephen. When I saw the blade the first time I was ready to bet that it belonged to a german bayonet. My grandfather had one made in 1912 (the date stamped on the blade) which looks virtually identical to yours (only the blade, the grip looks like the one that stephen posted). Also the sheath looks the same as the one that belongs to yours. Unfortunately I cannot post pictures since the bayonet is in Bulgaria.

Sincerely,

Alexi

Scott Bubar · Posted: Fri 21 May, 2004 5:56 pm Post subject:

So who was "M"?

Douglas G. · Posted: Sat 22 May, 2004 12:39 am Post subject:

Jez,
With nothing like hard facts, I would like to hazzard a guess as to what you have.
When this blade was current, and even until the 1st World War, Navies still issued
cutlasses to ships for boarding and away parties. Maybe it is a variant of such
weapons as were issued to the Kaiser's Imperial Fleet?
Best,
Douglas G.

Jez Mitchell · Posted: Sat 22 May, 2004 1:48 am Post subject:

It seems prety cirtain that it is some sort of German bayonet, so what does this mean, how was the blade made? Is it worth anythging? And would it be worth taking to a museium to be identified, or is that a waste of time?

PS.
Thanks to all of you that have replied you have been a great help

Steve Fabert · Posted: Sat 22 May, 2004 4:56 am Post subject:

I'm not sure what museum you would consult to learn more about this item. It is not old enough to be a true "museum piece". It is a piece of miltary cutlery that probably dates from around World War One, and almost certainly is no older than the late 1880s.

The addition of the sword hilt appears from this one photo to have been done professionally, but a closer inspection might reveal a lot more. If the piece came from the Simpson factory in its present condition, it would be interesting to know why such an unusual short blade was made. But the records of the factory would either have been destroyed in WWII or poorly maintained by their East German custodians afterwards. It is more likely that such a blade would have been refitted elsewhere after being taken as a souvenir.

Similar blades with ordinary bayonet hilts sell on EBay for less than $200 even if they are in near perfect condition. The addition of a sword hilt might enhance its value in the eyes of some buyers, but would detract from its value for most buyers.

Scott Bubar · Posted: Sat 22 May, 2004 5:19 am Post subject:

Jez, can you supply a clear picture of the crowned "M"?

An identification of the cypher might be very helpful in placing the sword.

Scott Bubar · Posted: Sat 22 May, 2004 6:09 am Post subject:

Jez, it occurs to me that there is a museum that would be interested in a cutlass of this period--the National Maritime Museum. Whether they can ID it or not is another matter.

If you have the name of the Navy man who owned it, it might prove helpful to them.

Brian M · Posted: Sat 22 May, 2004 9:19 am Post subject:

Hmm, perhaps you should try a web search for "WWI fighting knife."
It may be a composite, but then again I've seen some crazy-looking stuff that turned out to be original, particularly from WWI when armies, private companies, and individuals made up all sorts of weapons for hand-to-hand trench combat. Even if it is a composite made by an individual it is entirely possible that it has serious collector value as such, if it could be proven to have provenance as an extemporized WWI fighting knife. If a web search turns up nothing I would recommend taking it to a collector of militaria who specializes in WWI collecting.
While I can't add much more to the identification of the piece, a bit of general advice: Whatever you do, DON'T attempt to clean or polish the patina off. Wiping down with an oilcloth to get the grime off is fine, but polishing instantly destroys a substantial percentage of a piece's collectible value.

Regards
Brian M

Roy K. · Posted: Sat 22 May, 2004 1:46 pm Post subject:

I can't get your picture going, but judgeing from other people's replies, what you have is a post 1900 Kregsmarine cutlass. Somewhere in my books I have a picture of a KM cadet class posing with M98 Mausers, Lugers, and that type of cutlass, with a butcher bayonet blade and a hand guard. I am trying to find the picture, but we all know how that works. But anyway, I don't think it is an assemblage, I think it is for real.

Good luck,
Roy

Jez Mitchell · Posted: Sat 22 May, 2004 1:55 pm Post subject:

I did try to take some pics of the stamps, but the camera that i had borrowed wasnt up to it. I could try to draw them for you if you wanted...

M Enwia · Posted: Sat 22 May, 2004 2:14 pm Post subject:

what I'm thinking - and htis is just some gut kind of huntch thing - but I believe it might just be some replica - which was bought and left there by mistake. There's alot of that going on now adays- you won't belive how much of that sort of thing goes on nowadays.

Expect the worst so when it happens you won't be to disappointed - and if it doesn't then its a bonus and a occassion for happy times - JOKE - lol

Something which I will keep an eye - interested to find out what it really is - just hope its not a forgary - cough cough - I mean replica . . . cough . . . cough . . . now I'm gonna have scores of replica making manufactures hunting me down - probably with just newly inspired and created tools of torture.

Come on guys - you know I was only joking . . . come on . . . you're not really gonna hurt little old me . . . you wouldn't hit some one with contacts on . . . not the face . . . arrrrrr. . . any where but not the face . . . ooooohhhh . . . (high pitched) Not there . . . . . .

Scott Bubar · Posted: Sun 23 May, 2004 4:13 am Post subject:

Steve Fabert · Posted: Sun 23 May, 2004 5:00 am Post subject:

Great find. Now it's not an ugly duckling any more.

For a crude translation of any web page, use Babelfish. http://world.altavista.com/

Without attempting to translate the entire web page, it relates that this small weapon was commonly known as a "Torpedo Boat Saber" and was issued after WWI to both the Prussian State Police and to some Dutch police units. Total number of units produced apparently was in the range of just under 11,000 pieces.

So this item may be a wartime capture from WWI, or it may be a postwar police weapon. German police weapons that I have seen have stamped marks that identify the police agency, as well as maker's marks. My guess is therefore that this particular blade was not issued to a police unit, but was obtained as a war trophy.

Brian M · Posted: Sun 23 May, 2004 9:01 am Post subject:

It's original! Great find! Just to repeat, DON'T polish it. You'll ruin it's value. I've seen people I know do that, and end up with a piece worth 20% of what it should be.

Cheers,
Brian M