[Jeremy V. Krause]

Hello everyone,
I've been thinking, yes this tends to give me a headache but I do it anyway. How does one handle a shield and spear at the same time. I own a 12th c. spear from A&A and it feels natural to wield this with both hands. So how did those guys handle holding a shield and a spear effectively? Any insights?

[Steve Fabert]

[Jean Thibodeau]

Jeremy;

Go see Troy, there is a spear dual at the end with some very interesting moves, don't know if the moves are historically accurate or Hollywood B.S. , but It LOOKS credible to my eye.

I hope the subject on Troy that I started gets some replies about the weapons handling.
(Sorry if I'm using your post to get attention to my post: I'm looking for some of the same answers about weapons handling from those who have practicle experience handling Sword & Shield or Sword & Spear.)

[Jean Thibodeau]

Jeremy;

How do you like the A&A spear?

I have one on order and also the Viking Spear: Got both since I couldn't choose.

How much of an edge does it take?

Taking with Craig at A&A, he mentionned that the hardness of the blade is set at 40Rc. ( Historically accurate hardness.)

For a small extra charge he can hedge harden to the high 40s Rc while keeping the main body more shock resistant.

Being a "Modern Knife" collector also. (Mostly factory folders.) I am sort of used to 55Rc to 62Rc harness levels: This sort of affects my perspective of the much lower, historically accurate, hardness levels.

As opposed to European Swords I think that the Japanese Swords are much harder at the edge?!! ( Soft back though.)

(Sorry for rambling. I.E. Getting too far away from the subject of your post.)

[Josh S.]

I haven't seen Troy, but I do know that those flying-monkey leap-attacks Brad Pitt's character was so fond of aren't very viable... The last thing you want to do in a fight(any fight, but especially one involving hand-to-hand weapons) is lose your footing.

[Sean Flynt]

There is much martial silliness in Troy, and in that spear fight, but there are also some moments in that fight that illustrate the power of the spear/shield combo. It's certainly worth a look.

[Jean Thibodeau]

Josh;

Those Flying monkey leaps: If all you have seen are the advertising trailers I can see how you would arrive to that conclusion. I think he only does this 3 times in the whole movie, and the camera angle makes the leap look like the typical and impossible Flying Tiger/ Crouching Dragon type B.S. In actual fact the jump is something a human could actually do.
(Is it a good move? That is another question!)

[M Enwia]

I havn't seen Troy, but am defiantly very eager to go and see it. Has Fiction hurt or helped the Topic. If the movie people want an army - it would probably be good idea to come on sites like this and invite every one to star as an extra - I'm sure we'd probably get the best damn battle seen in movie history . . . lol - either that or the best intellectual debate in Hollywood . . .

[Josh S.]

I didn't say it's impossible. Of course a human could do it -but he would get impaled if he did it in a sword/spear/etc. fight.

[Kel Rekuta]

[Jean Thibodeau]

Kel;

You are certainly right that the fighting in Troy is not REAL fighting.

Maybe I found it to be a much different style of STAGE than what is usually seen and liked it. (But it is still stage fighting.)

Stage fighting involves by definition exagerated movements & a lot of Sword destroying edge to edge fighting.

If I was to join a group teaching real sword work, I would want to learn what works not what looks good on camera.

There is a group in my area that gives courses: LA COMPAGNIE MÉDIÉVAL. I haven't checked them out yet.

First I would have to get back in shape.

[Sean Flynt]

The "flying monkey" leap actually comes across as relatively reasonable in the picture, especially compared to some of the other combat stunts (Achilles IS supposed to be larger than life). It's just a sudden vault to the opponent's left side, with enough height to allow a downward-angled thrust over the top of the opponent's shield. The scene is actually more impressive when the leap doesn't work than when it does. Shows that it is just a trick after all rather than some kind of superhero, never-fail technique. I have no idea what the choreographer was thinking with the "crouching turtle" move during the spear fight, however. Shield held on back by left arm, entire left side exposed...
This spear fight definitely got me thinking more about shield and spear. Keep in mind that the weapons they're using here have relatively broad heads and can, at least theoretically, be used to slash as well as thrust.

[Jeremy V. Krause]

Hello Jean,
You asked about the A&A spear. I really like it as it is a sturdy no nonesense type of thing but I have had mine for years and have thrown it into old doors many many times. So now it is slightly bent at the end and the point has been compromised. Soon I will sent it back to Minn. so the guys can put it back into shape for me. I'm sure that hardening the point would help. Do you guys think that 6' is the proper height. I mean in movies, not that they can be trusted, spears are so much longer.

[Sean Flynt]

Look through the illustrations from Froissart's Chronicles here:
http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/texte/atx3_01.htm

Tons of 15th century polearms, including spears. They appear to range from between five and seven feet, with the majority either the approximate height of the bearer or approximately one foot higher.

NOTE: The best images of polearms are in the "siege of..." images.

[Josh S.]

[Jeremy V. Krause]

Yes, looking back at the Bayeux is enlightening. But for me I still can't get past the lack of power I have in wielding the spear with one hand.
I mean the harder hits seem to employ a lot of inertia versus muscle strength. I get the spear going torward the target and the weight of the shaft carries it throgh. These type of inertia thrusts penetrate wooden targets deeper than do controlled thrusts powered by muscle. Maybe I'm weak, but it seems that if you miss your target your shaft may be easily knocked aside by your oponent. I know that I am missing something here: I suspect that the spearmen were deployed en masse, thus fundementallly altering the nature of the single attacker.
I guess that I'm really wondering about the single hand-to-hand combat that was sure to occur. Also, and this is a side point, though of interest- my A&A spear has no cutting surphase- it is purely for the thrust. Is this accurate and would other cutting edge spear have been contemporary to the 12th c. A lot of questions I know. . .

[Felix Wang]

Looking at Greek pots may be useful also. The Greeks favored the spear over the sword, and used the large domed shield with it. A few pots show phalanx formations, but a lot more show melee combat. As noted above, spears seem to have been used overhand or underhand. Single spear & shield combat did occur, and the Greeks even had a term for this: hoplomachia. It was fundamentally different from phalanx formation combat, where courage and cohesiveness were dominant. There were even spear-fencing teachers of hoplomachia, who seem to have been a slightly disreputable lot.

[Steve Fabert]

[Joe Fults]

Not certain but the time I remember seeing the jump attack in the film, I only really remember 1, it allowed Achilles to get at an opening his opponent presented when Achilles was using a shorter weapon. Sword vs spear downward blow over top left of opponents shield who was committed to an attack on the other side of his (enemy) body. Seemed to get Achilles to the left side/rear of his opponent, past weapon and shield, more than above his opponent.

May not have worked worth a hoot in real life but at least they made some attempt to put it in a quasi plausbile context instead of doing the typical DEATH FROM ABOVE power attack. And it was visually effective.

[Kel Rekuta]