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Sean Flynt
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Steven H
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 Posted: Mon 14 Jul, 2008 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm. Combine an overly brief post that is wrong with a weekend out of town and I come back find I've been criticized and defended in my absence 
I assumed my comments were specific to the period and place of the dussack. Which is why I didn't consider the various Asian examples of wooden weapon use. In Medieval and Early modern the only all wood weapons that I know of are wasters not combat weapons.
In historical instruction sources I only know of the term dussack used for wooden bouting/training weapons. I didn't know the term was used for a sharp steel version as well.
Randall -
The poor fight so infrequently and win even less that I feel comfortable saying that, as a generalization, they didn't wage war. Additionally, I thought that the requirement for defense of the land extended only to freemen. I surprised to learn that sheriffs were supplementing the weaponry of defenders - what time period and place is this?
Cheers all,
Steven
Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Ben C.
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| Posted: Tue 15 Jul, 2008 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| Steven H wrote: | | I assumed my comments were specific to the period and place of the dussack. Which is why I didn't consider the various Asian examples of wooden weapon use. In Medieval and Early modern the only all wood weapons that I know of are wasters not combat weapons. |
well it depends on if you are just referring to the wooden versions of metal weapons or not because wooden weapons such as cudgels and quarterstaves were definitely used in Europe during the middle ages. Many morningstars could also been seen as wooden weapons and even some flails were primarily wooden with connecting leather straps.
However I think debate of such weapons would be best saved for a thread dedicated to wooden weapons 
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Bennison N
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| Posted: Tue 15 Jul, 2008 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephan Hall wrote: | | I´m sorry Bennison it was not my intention to upset you... |
Don't worry Stephan, I wasn't upset. I'm comparatively new to the study of Medieval history, so I listed Asian historical examples, about which I am far more knowledgeable. I welcome every opportunity to learn more about Medieval history.
In my opinion, the Dussack looks to be very effective as combat equipment. And whilst not being an ideal battlefield weapon, they would be excellent for self-defense or street-fighting. They almost remind me of Wing Chun Butterfly swords in general appearance (I know, another Asian example... I can't help it... They just keep coming out...). And I have seen Butterfly swords do amazing things in use, leading me to believe that Dussacks could be equally capable.
I'm actually quite seriously considering having a fine pair made for myself for practice. Any suggestions as to what is ideal material? Wood? Steel? Something else? And any exceptional makers you can recommend?
"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius
अजयखड्गधारी
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 16 Jul, 2008 7:14 am Post subject: |
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The way the handle curves back forming a D guard lets me to imagine that some techniques might involve some spinning of the dussak and unconventional ways to hold it: Reverse grip transitions, flipping back and forth from forward to reverse.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 16 Jul, 2008 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| Bennison N wrote: |
I'm actually quite seriously considering having a fine pair made for myself for practice. Any suggestions as to what is ideal material? Wood? Steel? Something else? And any exceptional makers you can recommend? |
Wood might work but one could cheat and use steel for just the part forming the D guard to avoid weakness and having a part of it breaking due to a narrow section with transverse wood grain.
Or if cut out of plywood one could make it out of 3/4" thick plywood maybe ? ( Would be warry of splintering at the edges maybe ).
Steel blunts might not need a very hard heat treat. ( Any good machine shop could cut these out of mild steel or high carbon steel if you want them hardened, as well grinding rounded " edges " would not nee high end sword making skills
Well, OlliN might be a good place to have one or more sharp and high end dussaks made or someone more local to you to avoid very expensive shipping charges.
http://ollinsworddesign.com/osd-custom.html
Tod Stuff being another custom maker that has a good reputation: http://www.todsstuff.co.uk/
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Kelly Powell
Location: lawrence, kansas Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Wed 16 Jul, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: |
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Instead of plywood I would shuck out the ducets and cut it from a length of 4x4 or even6x4 and go for hickory or ash.....you would have to do a lot of stock removal, but you could shape it to a hairs whisper of how you would like it.
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Tölgyes Tamás
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| Posted: Thu 17 Jul, 2008 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Dickinson wrote: | Any chance you could post the description?.....I'm sure someone could do some quick translating.
Dan |
The text doesn't say anything about the usage of the dussack, it gives only a structural description. but it is written in the text also, that the dussack was a prevalent folkweapon.
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Sa'ar Nudel
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| Posted: Thu 17 Jul, 2008 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | The way the handle curves back forming a D guard lets me to imagine that some techniques might involve some spinning of the dussak and unconventional ways to hold it: Reverse grip transitions, flipping back and forth from forward to reverse. |
Hmmm, I think not very likely. There isn't enough room in the hilt for fancy moves; The space is marginally narrower than in the hilt of an average 19th century military saber. It can actually be deployed much like a cutlass. After all, the boundries between an elaborated dussack (Sinclair style) and an early cutlass are very blurry.
Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 17 Jul, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| Sa'ar Nudel wrote: | | Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | The way the handle curves back forming a D guard lets me to imagine that some techniques might involve some spinning of the dussak and unconventional ways to hold it: Reverse grip transitions, flipping back and forth from forward to reverse. |
Hmmm, I think not very likely. There isn't enough room in the hilt for fancy moves; The space is marginally narrower than in the hilt of an average 19th century military saber. It can actually be deployed much like a cutlass. After all, the boundries between an elaborated dussack (Sinclair style) and an early cutlass are very blurry. |
You have a point there but I was visualizing having a partial grip during the transitions and/or spinning: One or two fingers plus the thumb. After the spin the hand would re-establish a firmer full finger grip for powerful blows.
The full hand need not be inside the grip and D guard for these moves but at the same time these might just be useful " showing off " one's manipulative skills. There is a possibility that any such techniques might be useless or dangerous to use in a real fight ?
I know that I can spin a dagger from forward grip to reverse grip and toss it from hand to hand alternating at will a forward grip or reverse grip in the same hand or to the other hand: Now this is DANGEROUS and I've managed to do this over many years with only one unfortunate time the razor sharp blade spun in an unpredictable direction i.e. tried something different and wasn't paying attention.  Result was a minor cut to the top of my hand ! Very lucky there as it could have been very bad.
Anyway , the point being that one can do a lot of stuff with a blade that isn't " optimum " or " smart " or obvious with normal use. Oh, just think of all the " stunts " kids do with a skateboard that is closer to a circus act than just using one to move from point A to point B.
I'm not saying that I believe that a dussak would be used this way only that I wonder about the possibilities ? I would have to handle one to be able to feel if it seemed possible or probable to just me.  
Sa' ar: I appreciate your comment and I am only asking more questions and explaining in more detail the way I imagine a dussak might be used by someone very VERY skilled.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Sa'ar Nudel
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| Posted: Thu 17 Jul, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: |
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Jean, I understand your point well and acknowledge it myself (for some reason I was focused only about the combat moves...). Twirling is great to achieve mastery and to get know your weapon very well. I must admit, after reading your comment once more, I ran for my dussack to try some stunts 
Minding I did it in for a couple of minutes within the confine room (no broken lamps this time  ), it is rather easy to twirl it very fast - using one finger only! I tried it both with my original antique piece and with my working replica (heavier, longer version with a stronger curve, sharp - great cutter).
Oh, just one more thing regarding the training dussack: I remember reading something about a dussack made of thick & stiff leather, all cut in one single piece.
Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 17 Jul, 2008 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| Sa'ar Nudel wrote: | Jean, I understand your point well and acknowledge it myself (for some reason I was focused only about the combat moves...). Twirling is great to achieve mastery and to get know your weapon very well. I must admit, after reading your comment once more, I ran for my dussack to try some stunts
Minding I did it in for a couple of minutes within the confine room (no broken lamps this time ), it is rather easy to twirl it very fast - using one finger only! I tried it both with my original antique piece and with my working replica (heavier, longer version with a stronger curve, sharp - great cutter).
Oh, just one more thing regarding the training dussack: I remember reading something about a dussack made of thick & stiff leather, all cut in one single piece. |
Thanks for testing this out and like I said if these " stunts " are useful in a fight is very much a question but stunts are a good way to become " One " with a weapon and gain confidence in it's use.
Oh, good one about the " lamp ".
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Danny Grigg
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Chad would you recommend "Illustriertes Lexikon der hieb- Stich-Waffen" to the German language challenged purely for the photos?
Is the book overflowing with photos? Any idea where I could pick up a copy?
Take a look at the following. Not sure if these are accurate replicas or not, any opinions on their accuracy?
http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=e...;q=dusacks
http://www.historicalfencing.org/Macdonaldarmory/forsale.htm
Also here as well:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=3080
I've also seen a photo of a Dusägge with a serrated curved blade and a shell guard, does anyone have this photo to post?
The following are from the book "The Complete Encyclopedia of Arms & Weapons Edited by Leonid Tarassuk & Claude Blair".
Dusägge (or Düssägge, Düsack)
A German short saber used in the 16th century for fencing practice. It soon developed into an infantry hanger, a prototype of the weapon used up to the second half of the 19th century. Most types had a short and fairly large curved blade and a hilt with a knuckle guard and short rear quillon. The Dusägge itself had probably derived from the Bohemian saber called Tésak, consisting of a short, wide blade with a slot at one end, forming both grip and the knuckle guard.
Sinclair Saber (or Sinclair Sword)
A name given by 19th century collectors to a group of weapons whose hilts, provided with long recurved quillons and either a ring guard or knuckle bow with a shell guard, bear some resemblance to Scottish swords. It was erroneously believed that these weapons had belonged to a Scottish mercenary band commanded by Colonel G. Sinclair that perished in Norway in 1612.
If anyone has more pictures of Dusägges please post.
Thanks
Danny
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Danny Grigg
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Wed 30 Jul, 2008 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Danny Grigg wrote: | Chad would you recommend "Illustriertes Lexikon der hieb- Stich-Waffen" to the German language challenged purely for the photos?
Is the book overflowing with photos? Any idea where I could pick up a copy?
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Danny,
Here's the review I posted of this book in our Bookstore:
| I wrote: | This German hardback book is filled with nicely-done pictures of edged, hafted, and other impact weapons from 1450-1900. The pictures are nice and overall length measurements are given. The text is in German so I can't comment on it. Of benefit, though, are several diagrams that label parts of swords, daggers, rapiers, and sabers. Being able to see the German terms for these will certainly help in looking through this book and other German books I have.
German arms & armour books are almost always worth their price, as they feature high-quality pictures of things that aren't often published in English-language sources. This is one of those books. There are other German books that are perhaps better bangs-for-the-buck, but this is a nice addition to the library.
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So, this book is pretty good, but there are others that are better. It's worth having, but books like Europaische Hieb- und Stichwaffen are much, much better (though often more expensive).
Amazon.de has this book for 12.95 Euros. Alibris.com has a copy for $31.95. From a price standpoint, it's not cheap, but is cheaper than many books I'd consider to be "better" books.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Dan Dickinson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 30 Jul, 2008 8:27 am Post subject: |
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Well, it may have been mentioned that MRL used to make a Dussack (I'm pretty sure it was them), and apparently Ritter Steel still makes a version of the steel Dussack.
With their reputation I wouldn't have high hopes for things like heat treat, proper geometry etc.....but the good news is that it's only $98.
Dan
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This is a standard topic