Question re: Hanwei Scottish Dirks -- myArmoury.com

Ruel A. Macaraeg

I'm headed to Scotland in June, and have hastily thrown together a costume that looks somewhat like the guy in the 'Penicuick Sketches' -- a loose white shirt with ruffled cuffs, a kilt, a black beret. I was thinking to add an inexpensive dirk for greater sartorial effect in the inevitable set of pictures we'll be taking, and the Hanweis seem a good budget-minded choice.

However, as I've delved more into Scottish fashion, I've become more aware of the regional and temporal distinctions: Highland vs. Lowland, pre-'45 vs. regimental. I haven't yet developed an eye for making ready distinctions, but the Hanwei models, shown below, seem closer to the Victorian-era stuff I've seen.

So my question is, are either of these appropriate to the costume I've got? Now that I write a cultural fashion column in a local periodical, I don't have the luxury of ever being improperly accessorized... Blush

Thomas McDonald · myArmoury Alumni

Hi Ruel

You'd be looking for something more along the lines of this one ..... Mac

Thomas McDonald · myArmoury Alumni

http://i7.ebayimg.com/03/i/01/6d/e5/7e_3.JPG

http://i7.ebayimg.com/01/i/01/6d/e6/2e_3.JPG

Sean Flynt · Posted: Fri 23 Apr, 2004 1:46 pm Post subject:

MRL has an "Early Scottish Dirk" for $100. It's probably closer to what you want than the CASI pieces. Catalog text says this is copied from an original of ca. 1700, but all such claims should be taken with a pinch or two of salt unless you can find photos of the original and compare original and replica side by side. I'm sure Mac can tell us if the replica looks to be true to any originals (considering the price). I happen to hate the look of this grip and scabbard, but that has no bearing on the authenticity of the design.

Sean Flynt · Posted: Fri 23 Apr, 2004 1:56 pm Post subject:

Now, this one I like much better. This is MRL, too. About $120. Supposedly 1720 and based on dirks shown in "Culloden: The Sword and the Sorrows." That claim is MUCH easier to check. I think this somewhat ho-hum dirk could be beautiful with antiqued steel and darkly patinated brass.

David Wilson · Posted: Fri 23 Apr, 2004 5:27 pm Post subject:

Right, both of the Chen/Hanwei dirks are Victorian era -- one is a Regimental-issued style, the other a "civilian" dirk with "theatrical" fittings. Sadly, I don't know of many decent "Jacobite-era" dirks available for cheap -- of the MRL dirks, the brass-handled one would be your best bet (I wasn't impressed by the "Early" dirk, I found it to be overly large and heavy).
MRL also had another dirk, with a carved wooden hilt that looked rather small in comparison to other repros (but this is actually correct, historically) and jimping on the backedge, but I couldn't find it in their current on-line catalog (they do have another one, with a large "baluster" style grip, but this would indicate a later, Victorian-era dirk and would therefore be outside of your time period of interest).
CASI also has a "PP" (Phillipine-made) "Early Dirk" available. It's actually not too bad, although the grip is a bit large.

I don't know what your price limit is, but Pat Tougher of Scottish Sword and Shield (www.scottishsword.com) has several Tinker dirks available, most of which would fit the "Jacobite" era well.... prices run around $400, some less, some more... you might drop him a line to enquire (he also has the CASI/PP/Chen and Windlass/MRL dirks, and others....)....

And keep an eye out for James Forman's The Scottish Dirk. Often available on eBay, I believe Pat has some copies available as well.....

Ruel A. Macaraeg · Posted: Sat 24 Apr, 2004 9:34 am Post subject:

* Thanks, friends, for the information and suggestions. I'm actually picking up a big claymore from Armour Class while in Glasgow (that's where I'll be staying) but didn't find it in my budget to fit a dirk in as well, or I would've gone that route. I actually like that brassy MRL dirk, despite the popular distaste for that metal, so I'll probably go that route.

* So let me see if I have this correct, then: The diagnostic features of pre-'45 dirks are a disc pommel and a 'guard' similar to kidney/ballock daggers (ie. with those bulbous lobes)? What prompted them to evolve into their Victorian forms? The two styles represented by the Hanwei models look quite different from each other, and I wonder about the divergence.

* "this would indicate a later, Victorian-era dirk and would therefore be outside of your time period of interest"

Actually, interest was determined by expediency in this case. I probably would've been just as happy to throw together a Victorian kit if the components were available. If, somehow, I come into some extra cash between now and June, I may just do that and get a Victorian dirk to match.

Thomas McDonald · myArmoury Alumni

Ruel A. Macaraeg · Posted: Sun 25 Apr, 2004 7:44 pm Post subject:

* I unfortunately don't have the relevant books. How long was it between the Disarming and the re-instatement of these newer Highland weapons? Was it all the way until Victoria's reign? And were these newer designs -- less functional and more baroque -- made under English or Lowland inspiration?

* I must confess that I do like the newer look as much, if not more, than the old. Since there are many local Scottish events here, and many people I know who'd be interested in attending them with me, I may have to come up with a Victorian outfit for future Scots-themed occasions.

For now though, with the short time-frame and even shorter budget, I'll be a Penicuik-style Highlander for the upcoming trip. Cool

Thomas McDonald · myArmoury Alumni

Ruel A. Macaraeg · Posted: Tue 27 Apr, 2004 10:17 am Post subject:

Thanks again Mac! I always wondered why those stone-set pommels were cocked...

Now that I look more at them, the blades on the later pieces do have less attractive profiles. I still like the decoration, though.

Sean Flynt · Posted: Tue 27 Apr, 2004 10:39 am Post subject:

Go to page 35-36 of this PDF for a discussion of lowland disk "pommels" excavated in the US, and take a look at that gorgeous basket-hilted, disk-pommel dagger on p. 36. I've seen the lowland daggers with delicate-looking three bar hilts, but I've never seen a Scottish dagger hilt with such a fully formed basket. A little eye candy for the BH fans....

http://www.apva.org/pubs/95reprt.html

Thomas McDonald · myArmoury Alumni

Thomas McDonald · myArmoury Alumni

Here's another ...... left hand dagger with half-basket .

* From the article "Notes On Some Early Basket-Hilted Swords" by G.M. Wilson ( thanks Eljay :-) , Mac

Dagger: about 1600, National Maritime Museum, Greenwich, No. WA 5369 , reproduced by permission of the Board of Trustees of the National Maritime Museum.

Sean Flynt · Posted: Wed 28 Apr, 2004 7:17 am Post subject:

Amazing! Thanks for the photos. You know, I covet your library almost as much as the contents of your armoury!