Handling of XVIIIb swords with long thin grips -- myArmoury.com

Al Muckart

I'm not sure whether this belongs here or in Historical arms talk, apologies in advance to the admins if it's misplaced.

I have the good fortune to have just filtered up to the top of a maker's waiting list and have been discussing a type XVIIIb longsword with him.

I'm not going for a recreation of a specific sword, so far my criteria are fishtail pommel and hollow ground. I have been looking at a lot of pictures both of reproductions and period swords to get ideas for what elements I like and don't like prior to discussion with the maker about what elements go together while being accurate to medieval weapons.

Something I really like the aesthetic effect of is the very long narrow grip on the well known XVIIIb in the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum in Munich, and the Albion Munich inspired by that sword. Aesthetically I find them much more attractive than the more straight-sided grips found on swords like Albion's Regent and Earl for example.

I've got a couple of questions about long thin grips like that; firstly, are they appropriate for the 1460s-1470s? There's something about them that says "early 16th century" to me, but I can't rationalise that and I don't have the expertise or the library to know whether they are appropriate for my chosen period or not.

Secondly, I'm not sure about is the usefulness of such a thin grip to someone with quite large hands. Can anyone comment on what they're like to handle?

Many thanks.

Lancelot Chan · Industry Professional

Many years ago when I was switching my training tool from a katana to a longsword, the longsword's relatively thin grip had caused me a lot of troubles. Back then I didn't understand why the grip had to be so thin. I had to apply a lot more gripping power on the longsword than when wielding the katana. I ended up padding up the longsword grip and made it as thick as a katana's grip, or wearing gloves with some padding. Later on I realized that the thin grip was necessary for the ever-changing gripping method in longsword techniques and it became more natural to me.

So I would say large hands with thin grip, yes, there could be problems but it can be overcome.

Glen A Cleeton · Posted: Tue 27 May, 2008 11:49 am Post subject:

I try to approach handling any sword or knife with an open mind. There are visual appeals and there are tactile differences that are often two very different things. I have not handled the Albion in question but do own a Del Tin 5157 and have come to really appreciate the handling/steerage, despite a lower level of blade engineering (mostly distal taper). This particular sword has no end of reference for one's fingers and with a thumb to the flat, edge orientation and point control are quite good. I have fairly large hands and wear a size 14 glove.

Although the profile appearance of the Albion grip may seem very svelt, I have to imagine it is not just a tapered and round form. Thus there is going to be the same types of tactile reference between the flat and edge orientation. if switching immediately between different swords (say the three on this table), there is often a sense of disproportion and perhaps some akwardness. Of the three below, the Del Tin is the lightest and longest but the weight isn't the only factor I found immediately user friendly, despite a much samller grip in crossection.

Cheers

GC

Sean Flynt · Posted: Tue 27 May, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject:

I'm not sure about 1460s/1470s. I associate that grip (shape and proportion) with German swords of ca. 1500 (as a midpoint--art shows them later and earlier). Dürer shows them in late 15th, early 16th c. An illustration of Maximilian from Der Weisskönig shows one similar to the Bayerisches example (Albion Munich/A&A Dürer). At least one Dürer illustration shows an embossed scabbard like that of the B. XVVIII, and that woodcut is ca. 1510 if I remember correctly.

I have one of these on my workbench right now. In fact, I'm in the process of choosing a grip so I'll be interested to read the responses of others.

For what it's worth, I consider my sword--a slightly battered A&A Dürer--to be 1480-1520 and I'm going to give it one of these grips--flared lower portion, very slender top, "rain" guard. Haven't decided between oval or faceted lower section.

Jared Smith

Jeremiah Swanger

Peter Johnsson · Industry Professional

Jared Smith · Posted: Wed 28 May, 2008 9:08 am Post subject:

Sorry if I misquoted anything Peter. I have swung the Munich one handed, and some hand and a halfs. I think this may work fine for chopping blows on horse, but have not had anyone volunteer their prized horse (the relatives' horses are in fact valuable competition horses) for test cutting experiments. Learning to do it does not seem like it would be any more awkward than the initial introduction to stances like Ox/ Ochs, or cuts like zwerchau.

I started looking at Craig Peter's photo of the hilt and tried to remember if you mentioned something about Mary holding the child on the coin? If my reproduction Munich pommel recess is close to the actual sword's recess, there are just a few coins (no Vetons I am aware of or Papal Jubilee mediallions, infrequent at this point, either) that are similar. A Virgin Mary with child motive in a roughly oval center coin of this size could be Hapsburg dynasty mints (Hamburg 1497 gold Ducat, Ferdinand I mints occurring between 1520 and 1550 at the very latest.) A silver coin with gold fire gilding over it, corresponding to one of the Ferdinand I mints would be interesting if it could be proven. I am not a qualified expert for that kind of matter. I do share a passion for wanting to know more of the providence of the sword though. Any close up photo of the actual coin would be appreciated.

Jared

Rodolfo Martínez

Peter Johnsson · Industry Professional

Al Muckart · Posted: Thu 29 May, 2008 3:58 am Post subject:

Hi all,

Thank you for your replies and your insights. I know next to nothing about period fencing but the points about being able to move your hands on the grip make sense. I will think more about what I want in this sword, but most of all I want it to be accurate to it's period. If Munich-like grips are pretty, well I might just have to get a different sword with one of those grips (after my lovely wife has recovered from me getting this one, that is) Big Grin

Whenever it is done I will post pictures here.

Sean Flynt · Posted: Thu 29 May, 2008 9:31 am Post subject:

Peter: Thanks for the information about the subtleties of grip shape and about the Bayerisches sword's inset pommel disc. Having never seen a detailed photo of that disc, I assumed it was done in low relief-- repoussé, cast or stamped. It's interesting to hear that it's engraved and filled.

I'm debating adding such an ornament to my own XVIII longsword project. I've researched images of saints from German and Austrian painting of the period and come up with a sketch for an appropriate design. My son is named Ambrose (nine months tommorow!) so St. Ambrose, with his distinctive open book, is my thematic focus.

I'm certainly more comfortable with engraving than repoussé, so I'm encouraged to go ahead with this part of the project. But I want to stay within historical parameters as much as possible. Do you think a saintly image is historically appropriate? Do you think all such ornaments would have been covered with glass/crystal? That would seem unnecessary except in the case of holy relics.