[Alexi Goranov]

Howdy Folks,

I have been looking for a good quality gambeson of the kind pictured below (picture taken from E. schmid's site), to no success. I may not have been looking at the right places Any suggestions and advices are welcome.

And with a gambeson a good mail hauberk is in order. I have a particular question though. Does anyone have experience with the 8mm rivetted mail products from Valentine Armouries? http://www.varmouries.com/vmaille.html
The prices are a bargain, its rivetted, its link diameter is small, it is even galvanized (not so good for those of us that want their stuff moderately rusted ) ...isn't it too good to be true? Any favorable or not so favorable comments are welcome.

Just to put this in some context my period of interest is XIII-XIVc.

Cheers,

Alexi

[Bill Grandy]

Alexi,
Have you checked out www.revival.us?

They've got two 14th century gambesons. I've seen one (Robert Busch on these forums owns it), and it is really nice. I've contemplated buying one myself.

I have a shirt of maille that I got from Purpleheart Armory that I believe to be the same as the one from Valentine, though I could be wrong. Regardless, it's pretty decent considering the price. The rings are 16 gauge, so it's a little on the hefty side. The neck hole is quite large to fit many sizes of people, so you'll have to use something to tie it shut. It's pretty big, so it'll fit just about anyone. I'm really thin, so it hangs down to my mid-thigh, and the sleeves hang below my elbows. A larger person would have it hang higher.

I bought mine under the recommendation of some of the AEMMA guys. But I'm thinking of selling it because I'd like to get a more authentic piece. Despite the fact that I want to sell mine, it is worth the money.

[Markus Haider]

The Mercenary's Tailor does have a Gambeson http://www.albionarmorers.com/armor/mercenary/shirtset.htm



Maybe Allan Senefelder can say something about it (length, quality etc.).

[Steve Fabert]

[Allan Senefelder]

The long arming coat we offer comes to around knee lenght and has full length sleeves . James ( our fabric armour (he's ex airborn and I can never get myself to call him our seamster ) ) puts alot of time into comming up with his designs .
Its made from hemp fabric ( no not a weird woody harelson moment ) which James has traced back to the Romans for use on the subarmelis or the form of arming coat used under the lorica . It very fiborous and tough . Thanks for keeping us in mind . Cheers!

[Bill Grandy]

[Johannes S.]

Valintine Armouries' chain maile is imported and so the quality might be less than normal. But if you realy want to know about thier maille the e-mail them, they have excelent customer service and usualy reply the next day. (And you might want to look at thier armour a bit, they have beautiful pieces. The only reason why they are so darn expensive is because of the drop ledges, decorative rivits, roped edging and other fancy things that are found on each piece. Ask them how much a suit will cost without those fancies and the price will drop qiote a bit.)

[Johannes S.]

And V-armouries also sells two types of gambersons. 1 is just a plain one: http://www.varmouries.com/cloth/ccloth03.html , while number 2 is a Arming doublet with optional chain maille under the arms and a chain maille skirt, excelent for covering those places that full plate armour cannot cover : http://www.varmouries.com/goth_arm.html

[Joachim Nilsson]

[Robert Busch]

Sorry I didn't see this thread sooner. I have the Revival Clothing Gambeson and I give it a healthy recommendation. It is pretty thick, and takes some breaking in, but it is pretty comfortable, and your arms have excellent mobility. It also does what it is supposed to do very well, protect you while sparring. It is a given that hard strikes still sting, but at least they don't leave bruises anymore.

Oh yeah, its a good idea to have this one dry-cleaned, as the colors can bleed out and make a mess in your washer, it can also take quite awhile to dry, I know this from experience

Bob

[Elling Polden]

Gambeson are not that hard to make, if you are not going for handstitching.

There are few actuall sources on gambesons in the 13th-14th century, as far as I know.
The one I remember the best is a written description in a 1250's norwegian manuscript.

It states that the gambeson (or whatever you call the padded shirt under the mail.) should end somewhere between waist and mid-thigh, and be complemented by padded hose, covering the thighs down to the knee.
It does not mention padding under the mail on the lower leggs, and illustrations show very tight fits for the leg mail, so I would guess it padding was either abcent or very thin.

A thicker cloth armour (Dont know what it would be called in english.) could be carried over the chain. This makes sense, as too much padding under the chain reduces mobility.


And, oh... What is the deal with the galvanized mail? I know it doesnt rust, but, hey, it looks like fence wire. <shudder shudder>


Yours
elling

[Allan Senefelder]

The average person knows nothing about period iron constructed maille and will return ( this happened to MRL enough thta they had to change thier write up about five years back and started to carry zinc dipped as well ) it the moment it starts to rust which it will do more ofter than not in the box on the way to the customer unless treated and then maybe . At best it will start to rust when they wear the first time . This rusting will stabilise with a regular treatment with some sort of penetrant but again the average person known nothing about this and additionally they don't want something they have to maintaine all the time . Most folks can't be bothered to change thier oil every 3000 miles on a $15000 dollar vehicle . If you took something brand new out of the box and its already rusting what would you think ?"whats this piece of !@#$"!Most people expect new to mean shinney and theres no real reason they should or would know that maille was made from
iron and did rust . They don't really go on much about that in history class which is the total extent along with ren-faires
of exposure for 99% of folks . Thus there is galvinized maille .

[Allan Senefelder]

I should add the followingif Galvinized maille is just left to hang and never used it will turn a dull grey but if worn and used often becomes an antique semigloss gunmetal grey color ( almost like its patinated ) thats quite attractive . At a distance the maille will look black .
Also the process of galvinization is not the same as MRL zinc dipped ( rubs of very quickly with wear ) . Galvinization
is a process of elctrically treating the wire so that the zinc bonds to it and also increase the tensile strenght of the wire slightly .

[Alexi Goranov]

[Elling Polden]

[Steve Fabert]

Since mail is so heavy, it would make sense to keep a hauberk as small as possible to reduce the total weight on the wearer. So an unduly bulky padded garment under the mail would not only present an opportunity for binding, but also an unnecessary increase in weight. Still, there would be a need for some sort of comparatively thin undergarment to keep the mail from abrading the wearer's skin as it moved. So perhaps the commercial gambesons meet both descriptions - some are the thin type which would be suitable for wear under the mail, others are quite thick and would be better worn over the top of the mail. Perhaps in colder weather all three might have been worn in layers, sandwiching the mail between two fabric garments.

The heavier padded garments have always reminded me of the Chinese winter uniforms worn during the Korean War, which gave their soldiers a sort of 'Michelin man' appearance. Not much good against gunfire, but quite effective against the cold and cutting weapons.

[Allan Senefelder]

The garment beneath is multi purpose 1) a maille shirt tends to rest its weigth on the wearers shoulders and while wearing a belt and bagging the maille over it will help there is still weight on the shoulders . The gamboison/arming coat
acts like the padded straps on a back pack making that weight sit comfortably 2) then as now the campaigning season
tends to be spring and summer or other words when its hot . Metal next to skin+sunshine=burn 3) maille by itself only
stops the cutting edge of a weapon, it does nothing to absorb the blunt trauma done by anything swung,thrust,or shot
(a blunt sword can still break your arm ) so the quilted garment absorbs that blunt trauma . More rigid plate forms of defense will absorb some of this blunt trauma but not all and also need an arming coat for the other reasons listed above
as well ( plate does distribute its weight better around the body as the pieces are strapped to the specific location for which they're intended ) .

[Allan Senefelder]

There are a number of funeral effigies many of them German from the 14th century that show what is obviously a quilted
garment being worn over the other defenses . Armour is at its best when worn in layers .

[Alexi Goranov]

[Elling Polden]