[George Hill]

I am curious about this picture. It's shown around from time to time, late period men armed with actual large shields, and I'm curious about the history of the picture itself.

I'e always been told these men were Italians, but they are armed with messers... was the messer used in Italy?

What do we know about this picture? Who made it, who are the men, are they really suppose to look like romans, (I've heard they were,) or is that just a modern idea?

[George Hill]

Argh. Pic didn't get attached, and now won't take. Pic limit of 150K and it's 560 something.... It's five guys with big shields and messers...

Well, here we go! I think....

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/8025.html

[Sean Smith]

Looks like they are a smaller version of a pavise. I can see if I have any of the ones I took pictures of in Munich. There were several of that rough size (slightly longer than the torso) hanging around on the walls.

[Johan S. Moen]

Curse my shoddy memory... Those are parade-dressed Landsknechts, but I can't remember which manuscript they are in. I think it is in Weisskunig, but I am sure someone here can give a yay or nay to that.

Johan Schubert Moen

[Craig Johnson]

I believe that would be from The Triumphs of Maximilian. It was begun in 1512 and unfinished at Maximilian's death in 1519. Note able for its excellent renditions of costume and armament for the period. There is text associated with each group if I remember correctly.

Best
Craig

[George Hill]

I googled The Triumphs of Maximilian, and found music related sites. It's some sort of symphony or some such?

[Daniel Staberg]

[George Hill]

Thank you Daniel


You don't happen to have a good link do you? I've been searching, and all I can find are several pages of horses.

[William Knight]

You can see more of that kind of shield in the spotlighted pavise thread.

Having acquired a copy of the Triumphmyself a couple years ago (I'd recommend that Landsknecht fans do likewise, it's a dover book and I got it used for cheap) I've flipped through it a number of times. My personal opinion, based on their juxtaposition with people outfitted for different types of tournament combat or other fighting competition leads me to suspect that their equipment is for some sort of competition, not the battlefield.
-Wilhelm

[Stephan Hall]

Since the book is something of a praise or even a viktory monument for maximilian, it´s possible that the scene is posed to look impressive. The Illustrator seemed to liked Long Messers more than Katzbalgers.
Katzbalgers were relativly short, the average blade seemed to be 20"( 50cm) long and very broad, and thus looking plump. So they where not first choice for representation. now wich weapon was commonly available in an Arsenal ?
Long Messers! They were not prefered by Landsknechts because they are rather arkward in close battle. But a common choice of Bürger or Townfolk relying more to a impressive Long Messer than a handy Katzbalger.

[Craig Johnson]

The illustrations were produced in large format and sent around to towns and cities of the Empire to be colored and put on the wall in a long processional mural. It seems Maximilian did not favor triumphal entry processions and this was instead of that activity.

This is then a great record of the idealized entry procession and indicative of the best of everything along these lines from that time.

The picture in question is from the Gefecht section of the parade. This is the foot combatants of the period, which Maximilian was a bit of an aficionado of as opposed to earlier nobility who favored the tournament on horse more exclusively. The Dover print just calls these guys fighters with longswords and shields, but my guess is that the translation may well be lacking. I do not have the original text to check from but it seems a bit simplistic compared to the art and some of the other descriptions.

Best
Craig

[Chris Arrington]

Its interesting to note that each of the shields is distinctly different in design, even though they are all generally of the same size and shape, and all but one could fall into the pavis class of shields.

My observations: from Left to Right.

1.) Gently curved square sheild of medium size, but does not include the "typical" gutter shape of a pavis. The grip/strapping is interesting as it is what I would call the roman style (vertical with hand down) but is strapped almost like a heater. I haven't seen one of this style from this period (but I don't have the breadth of experience that many do on this board or the armourarchive.org board).

2.) Classic "small" Pavis (in comparison to an archer's pavis) . Center gripped and has the rounded gutter. Most of the illustrations of this shield type that I've seen have been in relation to armoured combat (judicial maybe?)

3.) Similar to #2, center gripped, but has a soft "V" shape and no well defined gutter. A new shape to me.

4.) Similar to #3 in that it has no defined gutter, and has a gentle "C" cross section, and a very strong exterior median reinforcement. Another new type to me.

5.) These I've seen in modern reproductions (see WindRoses website). Very similar to the classic small pavis, except the gutter is V shaped instead of the classic curved gutter. (I also assume from the illustration that this shield is center gripped). I'd always assumed that the modern reproductions were ahistorical, and that the gutter was shaped this way because it is much easier (and cheaper equipment) to construct with a sheet metal bending brake, instead of having to have a radius press to create the classic curved gutter. Guess I was wrong !

[Craig Shira]

.

Hello

If one is interested in Landsknechte history, the Triumph of Maximilian can be deceptive. As was mentioned before, the artist wanted to make the procession look impressive, not accurate. It is for this reason that the Triumph is the only image I can think of that depicts a Landsknecht soldier with shields, assuming that these men are, in fact, Landsknechte. The style of slashing clothing was popular in other areas outside the military. The same can be said of other depictions of clothing, armor, and and weapons.

When dealing with outright propaganda, such as this, what is depicted is seldom reality. Artistically, it is a fantastic work and stands out in my mind as one of the many great block prints from the Holy Roman Empire (the German lands). I love looking at the conceptual works and fantasy peices from the era, since the Renaissance ideal and reconing of fantasy is really interesting compared to our own.

.

[William Knight]

I think what I was saying, as was Craig, is that they are probably not actually landsknechts, since they occur with other tournament combatants.
-Wilhelm

[George Hill]

Whatever they are, I should very much like to see the rest of the book's pictures. Does anyone know of an online copy?

[Craig Shira]

.

I was re-reading the original post, and this segment seemed to have not been addressed.