[Eric Hejdström]

Recently I came across some pictures of some english funerary brasses from early 15th century wich hade some unusual features. The pictures are present in the Ospey book about Agincourt 1415, my favourite period for arms and armour. I have not found anything similar in any of my other books, either Osprey or others, but I would very much like to find out more about the unusual articulated hourglassgauntlets I found. The pictures below are the best ones where the construction can clearly be seen. I have never seen or heard about any surviving examples anywhere. As you can see in the pictures, the shape in general is very typical for ordinary hourglass gauntlets but the feature with articulated lames in the cuff is strange. The first reason to know more is that I really would like to make me a pair for my early 15th century armour.



The brasses are from left to right; John Fitzwaryn at Wantage church c. 1414, John Lysle at Truxton Church d. 1407 brass c. 1420, John Leventhorpe at Sawbridgeworth Church c. 1433, John Drayton at Dorchester Abbey Church c. 1425.

Also worth noticing is that the brass of Joh Leventhorpe have an artivulation over the knuckles, this feature is however less important since his brass is also the latest one. What do you think? Artistic freedom from the maker of the brass or do one dare to make himself a pair?

/Eric

[Russ Thomas]

Erik,

The Leventhorpe ones are extremely interesting. Most hourglass gauntlets of the period had a knuckle rider plate that the fingers were attached to. This was riveted at the sides similar to the ones shown. However, this was fitted under the main plate of the gauntlet., not over as your picture clearly shows.The picture also seems to show another plate attached here . I am at a loss to think of any gauntlets with movable knuckle plates like those shown until the later gothic period. I wonder how much of this work was fact and how much of it was artistic license? Because the way that they are drawn, they ( the cuffs ), would not work ! They would only bend when you bend your wrist forward, and then you would have very dangerous gaps showing exactly where you would not want them!

Regards,

Russ

[Eric Hejdström]

Thanks for the answer Russ!

I also find the knuckleplate to look a lot like the construction of later gothic style gauntlets. Maybe a very early construction? I find it hard to see why an artist would make something that revolutionary in a brass picture and that noone would have used it for a real pair. But then, on the other hand, maybe they did but the evidence is sadly lost now. But it is quite a few years before the construction appears in general.

About the lames on the cuffs depicted. I think the design would work, as long as a great deal of attention is paid to fitting the cuffs. The overlap in the plates must be just about perfect to not make them cumbersome. The only reason for the design as I can see it is to further increase the manouverability in the wrist. But as you pointed out this would only apply to the hand when moved forward ,and to some extent, backwards. Turning the hand upwards och downwards is restricted in the same way as on regular gauntlets. However, I find this less neccessary than the possibility to bend the vrist forward and backward.

The angle in wich the lines are drawn on the pictures is, as I see it, mostly artistic freedom. But I think that one might be able to make a pair, though not without a few curses on the way... But if I ever make them I promise to post pictures here.

More suggestions and comments are welcome!

/Eric

[Russ Thomas]

Erik,

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Years ago, I made one as a prototype for a Jeanne d'Arc movie that did NOT get made. Yup, my gauntlets are mismatched; English pattern on the right hand, Italo-French on the left. The 'English' gauntlet works just fine. The cuff fits much tighter than an 'hourglass' gauntlet, and articulates just fine.

[Russ Thomas]

Hi James,

Yes, but the plates on your gauntlet are not cut in quite the same way as they are on the brass, with that taper sloping towards the middle of the wrist., and with the plate cut straight across the wrist, as opposed to on the curve as we would normally do it. As it seems to me , your gauntlet is articulated in much the same manner as later gauntlets were, which of course would work fine.

BTW. James, I tried to e mail you several times in reply to your e mail to me, but they keep getting sent back! Are you trying to tell me something ? !

Regards as ever,

Russ

[Eric Hejdström]

Thanks for the picture James! And for your further comments Russ. I still think its and interesting project to work on. Maybe a mockup of the cuff in cardboard or thin plastic will reveal more about it's nature. The fit towards the plate protecting the hand is of lesser relevance as long as the lames in the cuff works. I will try to create a mockup as soon as I've cleared my workspace at home. Injured my thumb a while ago and removed the cast today so hopefully I will be able to work a bit better now.

Maybe a small curve in the lame on the inside of the overlap might do the trick to stop them from sliding apart and creating a gap at the wrist? But I'm still curious about getting the more sloped version as seen in the brasses to work properly.

[Jonathon Janusz]

Jeff Wasson made a set of gauntlets very similar in the cuff to what you are going after. Check out the link, in particular the early fifteenth century gauntlets. . . and I've been thinking the same thing for the suit I am planning. . .

http://www.wassonartistry.com/armor.php?w=gauntlets

[Eric Hejdström]

Very nice gauntlets indeed but isn't the lame just a half one? Very hard to see on the picture and maybe I'm mistaken. In thepictures above the lames are clearly going all the way around the wrist. On the other hand the hands are positioned as desired first in the picture and the lines for the cuff later. But still... there should be some truth to the design.

[Randall Moffett]

There are quite a few effigies from this era with those type cuffs. I have never tried making them before.

James,

Do you have anymore pictures of that gauntlet? I would love to see them if so. In fact I'd love to see pictures of the whole suit. Everytime I see it I forget to ask.

RPM

[Eric Hejdström]

Randall, do you have more pictures of this type of gauntlet in effigies? Would be very interesting to get as many references as possible! And, yes, more pictures please! Details are never unwelcome.

[Matt Bayley]

[Jason G. Smith]

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Hello, Russ,

So THAT'S why I haven't heard from you. I hope it isn't because our email servers aren't on speaking terms. That's happened before... But why would it only go one way? ('')


Thanks for the compliment, Matt. I based my gauntlet on those seen on the John Leventhorpe brass, which show a tighter, less bell shaped cuff. Artists rarely get articulation compression right, among other things, so I worked from the features that the artist seemed to be recording. The edges of the lames seen from the side are not quite described by a straight line, the edges being relieved slightly to accommodate lame rotation, but so slightly that one would have to be very observant to notice. Also, brasses are not much good for measuring lame clearances, but it doesn't take much to get the sliders to work. My main departures from the brass are the form of the knuckles, and the small lame that the fingers are attached to in many surviving hourglass gauntlets, which the Leventhorpe gauntlets show the wrong way. To show an articulation tab the wrong way is not an unusual mistake to make; I made it myself in one of my design sketches for the movie, and I make the stuff! I made the tabs go the way of the brass because it seemed to me that a design that keeps points from lodging in the cuff plates would be preferable, if possible.

[Randall Moffett]

Erik,

ok....

Walter Cookesey d. 1407
Thomas de Crewe 1411
Henry Darys 1427
John Peryent 1415 (make sure it is not the one from 1442 wearing mittens, I think this is his son)
Michael de la Pole 1415
Ralph Neville 1425
Richard Fox 1439
John de Brewys 1426
John Phelip 1415
Sir Simon Fellbrigge 1415

There are perhaps many more as I only included the men with segmented cuffs that had the visible projection for the rivet pivot point, those that had not projection or rivet I exlcuded bu tI am fairly confident are like these cuffs as well. See John Seagraves effigy 1425

I cannot post more than a few as I'd be here all day but here is John Peryent (1415) and Simon Felbrigge-

As I said there are tons and tons of them. This was just going through about 1/2-2/3 my effigies on hand.

RPM

[Eric Hejdström]

Thanks for the information, all of you! The link to Macpherson replica was much appreciated. Also I will look in to the rest of the effigies. It seems this type of gauntlets are mainly an english feature or are they represented elswhere in Europe in early 15th century? Most of my armour I want them for is generally of german origin. I just think it's a very interesting part of the armour.

/Eric

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Here's one for Russ. This is the FIRST brass that I've come across that shows the articulation tabs going the other way. It's Thomas Bekingham, d. 1431.

[Russ Thomas]

Thankyou James ! No doubts about that one working perfectly - as is ! It is strange that all the others work the other way around. Obviously that seems to be the way that they were done at this early period, when not that many years later they were all articulated the other way. BTW, I can't really tell on my monitor, but does the left hand gauntlet have a sort of lobated edge on the wrist lames ?
There are some fantastic illustrations of brasses shown here in this thread, do you know of any good books on the subject that you might care to recommend ? I am hoping that Toby might write one, as he went round visiting them all as past of his thesis I believe.

Thankyou for posting the picture.

Regards,

Russ

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

I have a bigger version of this picture I couldn't post (got it off flikr.com, if you want to track it down), and no, the gauntlets are shown completely symmetrical.

[Matt Bayley]

You might want to check out http://flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/collections/ particularly useful images of everything armour related.

Also from flickr. Realy small articulation.



Matt