Any historical predecessor of today's fencing mask? -- myArmoury.com

Dmitriy Sobolev

Was the wire mesh ever used for face/eyes protection in real combat helmets? Of course, I know of mail aventail, but usually it doesn't cover the eyes (although I heard of mail "veils" covering the eyes on some eastern helmets). But I don't mean flexible mail, likewise I don't mean various "bars" and "ribs" used on bascinets and pots. I'm speaking about a hard mesh we see on the olympic fencing mask - through which one may see and through which a blade tip can't pass.

Was the mesh like that avaibale in past times at all?

Thanks for help!

Dan P · Posted: Fri 14 Mar, 2008 12:13 pm Post subject:

I doubt hard mesh would be any significant source of protection. It would not have the absorbing quality of mail worn over layers of padding to resist a thrust or dart, nor the rigidity of plate to take an impact.
Its good for resisting a wide-tipped blunt; that just slides off or is stopped due to the flex of the mesh. But anything sharp and pointy is going to most likely "catch" in the weave and go right in. Also, the individual strands are not really interlocked with each other like rings in mail, so the blade is going to have an easier time forcing them apart.

Steven H · Posted: Fri 14 Mar, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject:

I believe masks/material like that shows up in the 19th century. If Bill Grandy wanders by he can probably add more - he has one.

-Steven

Robin Palmer · Posted: Sat 15 Mar, 2008 11:09 am Post subject:

Hi Demitri

Terry Browns book on western martial arts includes references which show clearly they did not use them in the late 1500s I suspect they were a 19th century invention. As Dan says they would be little use against say a small sword or rapier point There is a pair of training rapiers in the V.A. they have bulbus tips designed to limit they effect. on impact.

Lafayette C Curtis · Posted: Fri 21 Mar, 2008 4:26 am Post subject:

It depends on how broad your definition of "face mask" is. The Roman gladiators had helmets that protected the face and the eyes by a similar approach, although in their case it was done by means of a metal plate pierced with holes rather than a wire mesh. Of course, it was used by prize-fighters rather than actual soldiers, and I don't know of any evidence for continuity between the ancient helmets and the modern fencing mask.

Dmitriy Sobolev · Posted: Sat 22 Mar, 2008 12:30 am Post subject:

Thank you for your answers!

Yes, I absolutely forgot about those gladiator helmets. And as you reminded me of them, I recalled some other helmets with a "pierced plate" visor - a helmets for foot tournament like this one
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thoog/1237451184/
Very similar in appearance to the fencing mask. Sometimes visor is crimped.

I also heard about the so-called "Bicocca helmet", or "Bicoquet" (I'm not sure in english spelling), used in combat. Being a variety of "grand bascinet", it consists of two hinged halves (opened to don it) and have a visor with no distinct eye holes too.
http://hobby.nikolaev.com.ua/foto/index.php?id=379
Number 1 is Bicoquet, number 4 is armet with bicoquet-like visor.

I'm thinking about using a properly decorated fencing mask as a substitute of helmet on the LARPG... Very glad I've found those pictures, in my taste, a mask would be a satisfactory imitation of the first one.

Just one remark. Robin Palmer, if you feel it difficult to type my name correctly, please, use copy/paste or just skip it.

Kelly Powell · Posted: Sat 22 Mar, 2008 5:40 am Post subject:

and didnt the baton fighters in italy (basically intermural team sca fighting back in day) Wear leather helmets and such.....hell maybe they just wore battle helms....a sallet with bevor is going to do the job.

Russ Thomas · Industry Professional

Dmitriy,

I have a picture here that I will send you, that may be of interest. Unfortunately I am unable to downsize it to post it. But if I send it to you as an e mail, possibly you can post it here on the forum?

Hope that it will help.

Regards,

Russ