[Kelsey McLeod]

Hello all,

I have been researching the most likely set of body armor/padded garments that might have historically accompanied the well-known wallace collection A2 mail shirt. That item is placed at c. 1450 and the best guess I've been able to make is that a haubergeon during this period may have been worn with a gambeson, and possibly a brigandine.

I would be most appreciative if any of the knowledgeable readers on this forum could share any information or opinions on the subject.

Thank you.

[Chuck Russell]

a gambison would have been out of date to say at 1450. most likely it would be more of an arming doublet. which is more tailored, form fitting and thinner than a gambison. the mail could have been worn with a number of things such as a brig, breastplate or a jack.

[Randall Moffett]

Kelsey,

Not to disagree with Chuck but usually an arming doublet would be worn with plate and at times select mail, though alone not so much. He is right in saying that an aketon or gambeson would not be used, less that the garment itself is not used but the terminology changes to other words, in english, the jack. They can be multilayered or stuffed- seems that in England in the north and SW as well as Scotland and Wales the stuffed kind continues as prefered in the 2nd half of the 15th.

Burgundian ordinances seems to indicate under mail 10 layered jacks would be used under mail. In the Howard books jacks and mail are fairly common armour.

So my guess would be the jack would be under mail and likely padded or layered type but it depends what other armour bits you plan on wearing.

Good luck!

RPM

[Chuck Russell]

see, that ordinence is odd. we've read too and think that the jack is worn over the mail. the fabric slowing the arrow down. oherwise the arrow would break the mail and the jack wouldnt be much good. interpretations are always fun. we tried this on jamesb's 15 layer jack with the mail underneath and the arrow went a tad threw the jack but bent the tip once it hit the mail.

when did the late 14thc aketon really stop being used in favor of the arming jacket?

[Randall Moffett]

Chuck,

I am sure it could be done either way or at times both ways at the same time. In the Howard Housebooks there is a listing for the wearing of a jack with doublet of fence, seemingly two textile garments together. While the ordinance might be weird (not sure what accounts you are comparing it to as a standard) it is the only one I know of that clearly states the manner of wear. Artwork seems to show jacks under mail as well. The jacks of the 15th being well cut and tighter but this makes sense as the aketon/gambeson grows tighter fit in the 14th as well.

AS far as the use of gambeson and aketon. Thats a hard one. 1386 it is used under mail and breastplate in bertrand de gueslin's chronicle. It seems that chaucer's knight as well is wearing one in the 1380's when he was writting. I could not find it but I think the Chaplains or Monstrlet account of agincourt uses one of the terms aketon or gambeson again but I'd double check it. I think he describes knee length mail hauberks in use at the same time as well. So if thats right you are seeing aketon/gambesons into the 1st quarter, possibly 2nd quarter of the 15th.

My take is that the aketon/gambeson technology does not disappear but the term in usage does. This is fairly common so not a big deal. The arming doublet in my opinion would be what would have light padding and could be under mail but primarily was for plate. In the end the aketon/gambeson splinters into a number of varieties, multilayered, stuffed, the heavier padding to little-no padding so along with the name alterations we have to figure what the heck is they are talking about as well. In the Accounts I have seen most often the jack goes with mail and even some plate bits, the Howard Housebooks which have lists and lists of men and equipment has jacks and brigs and mail fairly often, though the position of them is not given.That is not to say one could not wear the jack under or over at times but that would be fairly hard to prove, except by the previously stated burgundian ordinance unless you know of something I do not, which is possible for sure.

RPM

[Sean Flynt]

There's probably something of value among the Beauchamp Pageant drawings. I can't find those online, unfortunately. Here are some late 15th c. German variants. Only one jack/brigandine here. The other figures appear to wear a loose shirt or tunic over the mail and it doesn't look like there's much under the mail.

[Sean Flynt]

I forgot about this, and I just downloaded it the other day!

http://www.historiclife.com/Essays.html

Download the "Jacks Documentation" file. It discusses the kinds and construction and collects many photos of jacks from this period, several of which show jacks over mail. Very helpful document!

[Randall Moffett]

Sean,

I do not think there is an arguement that jacks could not be worn outside or inside. I'd tend to shy away from the idea that nothing was worn under mail as I have never spoken with a single person who was not better wearing at least a shirt between their mail... imagine the tearing of the hair or bites you'd get. No fun at all.

Here is a good example from 1473. Two gents in front one is wearing a shirt, jack, mail then a cloth covered brig and the one to the left mail under his jack. I do not have time to really look for many others but their are plenty of mail over jacks as the burgundian ordinance dictates with some looking.

Lord Grey's Retinue is a great link for the WotR's so do take a look there as Sean said they are very good.

RPM

[Kelsey McLeod]

Thanks to all that jumped in and thanks especially for posting examples and links. I had come across many of these resources in the past, but I don't think I realized the connection on the items covering the torso - sometimes it looks like a breastplate, sometimes a padded cloth garment (jack), and sometimes what I assumed to be a brigandine.

This was my first post by the way and I have to say I've really enjoyed some of the conversations I've read here so far

--Kelsey