[Torsten Titel]

Hi again!

Since I unfortunately found out, that the Ballock Dagger from the Wallace Collection (A732) is too "young" for my reenactment purposes, I wanted to give it a try with another one (though I think I will have the WC Dagger made anyway, because it's still my favourite Ballock Dagger).
The elegant shape of this Ballock Dagger from the Klingenmuseum Solingen is very unique, which I find really intriguing...
Does anybody know anything about it? This time the respective museum (Klingenmuseum Solingen) didn't respond to my emails asking about the dagger...
Again, I would very much appreciate your help.

Greetz,

Torsten

[Christopher Gregg]

Torsten,

I don't know anything specific to your particular dagger, but the style seems to include design elements that are very similar to the Wallace dagger already discussed. The double channels at the mid point of the quillon block, the style of the grip and pommel cap, these make this design seem to also belong to the 16th century. I assume you're looking for an earlier example, perhaps mid 1400s? Try Tinkerswords.com and look at Michael's dagger page - there are two ballock daggers there that are earlier designs. I have one very similar to the second one pictured, and I use it for 1475 reenactment. Hope this helps and Good luck!

[Chad Arnow]

This item is shown in Hanns-Ulrich Haedeke's book Blankwaffen: Führer durch die Ausstellung, which is a book highlighting edged weapons from the Deutsches Klingenmuseum. Unfortunately, it doesn't say much about it except:

Nierendolch.
Eisen, Hilze aus Holz.
Deustchland, 2. Halfte 15, Jh.

As near as I can tell, that translates to:

Ballock dagger.
Iron, hilt(?) of wood
Germany, 2nd half of the 15th century.

I don't think I've seen it anywhere else in my books.

[Chad Arnow]

[Christopher Gregg]

Chad,

Yeah, I'll agree that the Tinker daggers exhibit a bit more of a "modern" look, but then again, they ARE new. If you look at the Wallace dagger in a color photograph, it appears "newer" than most other known examples, such as are shown on the myArmoury article. Most of the ballock knives I've encountered (in photographs) are pretty "excavated" looking, and this adds to their older "look". As you point out, the basic style could be from the mid 15th century, but could also work through the late 16th century.

[Chad Arnow]

The "modern" look I'm talking about has nothing to do with new vs.old or excavated vs. mint condition. Tinker's stuff (and I've owned 2 of his swords and 4 of his daggers/dirks) is attractive but often uses shapings that look more like modern art knives than historical pieces in my opinion. They usually capture the feel of their inspirations, but generally have some kind of modern twist in shapes or materials that makes them different from more faithful replicas. Nice and attractive for sure, but less historical than my own tastes.

Just my two cents, though. Since Torsten has been trying to have specific historical pieces recreated, I'm guessing he's interested more in historical recreations than in historically-inspired pieces like Tinker's.

Arma Bohemia has a few replicas of 15th century ballock daggers in their catalogue and just did a custom one for me that's pretty spot-on to the original.

[Torsten Titel]

Chad,
Thanks again for providing the valuable information! Let's hope that the Klingenmuseum Solingen doesn't share the tendency to change their datings on a regular basis...
"My time" is 1475 (Ulmer Aufgebot 1475), so the dagger would be perfect, beeing dated to the second half of the 15th century.
I will keep on trying to contact the museum for some information about the dimensions of this dagger - at least its overall length - to have it reproduced.

The daggers of Tinkerswords.com are good and smooth looking, but I agree, that they do have a modern "touch".
Btw - the copy of the slim Ballock Dagger from Arma Bohemia is awesome! I like the wider, triangle crossection blades better, but it is really a piece of art! I have a cutlery set and various other items from Jakub (Arma Bohemia) - he always delivers high quality.

Greetz,

Torsten

[Chad Arnow]

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Below is a ballock dagger I photographed in the British Museum. I either forgot to photograph the label or it was not labeled, so I don't have a date or place of origin for it. However, there is a 15th century effigy of Sir Dierick Van Der Merwede pictured on page 116 of Edge & Paddock that depicts this knight with an identical dagger. This dagger may be another example of a 15th century ballock dagger for you to consider.

Best,
Jonathan

[Torsten Titel]

Jonathan,

This one is way cool! It looks like a later dagger, though. Do you perchance have the picture of the effigy of Dierick Van Der Merwede? Or maybe some more pics of this dagger?
Can you estimate it's overall length?
I made a quick sketch of the parts - as I think it is made. Could it be that way? The top part running out in four bands with Fleur de Lis at the ends, made from one piece of sheet bronce, bent down over the ballocks?
Sorry, Jonathan, but you can't just send me pictures of another great Ballock without being flooded by questions...
But thanks for this new option!

Greetz,

Torsten

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Torsten,
I think your drawing really captures the metalwork on the hilt. I took this photo last May, so the size is a bit of a fuzzy memory--maybe about 16"-20" overall? This dagger was located in the old library section amongst a number of unlabeled items. It was a unique-looking dagger so I took a few photos (that turned out to be rather blurry). I can send you larger (but still blurred) photos. Send me a PM if interested.

Jonathan

P.S. Below is a scan of Van Der Merwede of Holland:

[Kerry Stagmer]

I really like the strap mounts on the wood. That would make a great pattern for a highly figured wood (root maybe) with silver mounts.

thanks for sharing Jonathan

[Torsten Titel]

I finally got the response from the Klingenmuseum Solingen with some data on the dagger:

Inv.Nr. 1939.W.161
German, 2nd half of 15. cent.
Steel, forged iron, wood
length overall 37,6 cm, blade length 26 cm, width of quillon block 3,5 cm, width of blade 15 mm.

And - curse my luck - there's another letdown: it's probably a fake! The head curator isn't sure but suspects that this dagger is a historism fake from the 19. cent..

So, even if I probably won't get any further information on the dagger posted by Jonathan - and maybe it's prudent not to dig any further into the matter - this is going to be the dagger I will have reproduced for my 1475 equipment. Thanks again, Jonathan, for providing those pics!

Greetz,
Torsten

[Jonathan Hopkins]

So you did receive them? I am sorry i could not provide any more information. I am excited to read that you will reproduce that particular ballock dagger--it will probably one of a kind among modern replicas! Please keep us updated on this project.

Best,
Jonathan

[Torsten Titel]

Jonathan,
There's really no need to be sorry about anything - you delivered me the perfect opportunity to achieve a copy of an existing bollock dagger that probably - at least for the time being - no one else has...
Since I received infos on different daggers from two museums already, I tried to contact the British Museum as well. Whenever - if ever - I get some data on this dagger, you are the first to know... I think, concerning the dating of this dagger, this time I'm on the safe side, because you already delivered the matching artwork. Btw - Dierick Van Der Merwede was a dutch knight, who was buried on May 24th 1452 and whose descendants emigrated to the USA in the 19th century. I attached a picture of the original headstone.
Thanks again for sending me your photos!
Greetz,
Torsten

[Torsten Titel]

Why does it always have to be so complicated...
I contacted the British Museum about the dagger posted by Jonathan. The first department couldn't find it in their database and suggested contacting another department; the second department informed me, that it was on loan from the University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archeology and Anthropology!
Aaaargh!
Well, I found the address and emailed them as well. On their HP they say that they don't give any info by email. Let's hope, they make an exception, since I'm living in Germany - not exactly anywhere close to Pennsylvania...
Just wanted to let you partake of my Odyssee...

Greetz,
Torsten

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Perhaps a forumite in the vicinity of the university could help you out. (I hope!)

Jonathan

[Sean Flynt]

[Rickard Wingaard]

There is a very nice example of a dagger from Lund, in medieval Denmark (present day Sweden), that is dated 1300. It looks really nice, and very similar to later daggers. Some statues from Poland (if I remember correctly) also show early 14th century daggers that have the almost exact same shape as later daggers.

[Jonathan Hopkins]