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Torsten Titel




Location: Germany
Joined: 23 Dec 2007

Posts: 17

PostPosted: Tue 01 Jan, 2008 11:16 am    Post subject: Bollock Dagger A732 from Wallace Collection         Reply with quote

Hi everyone!
I need some help from you concerning the above mentioned Ballock Dagger A732 with scabbard, by-knife and pricker from the Wallace Collection.
This is my favourite original of a Bollock, so I would like to have it reproduced as close to the original as possible.
So I wanted to ask, if anyone in this forum knows some details about it. Especially the used materials would be helpful. I think I can remember having heard that the grip is made from maple (probably root wood) - does anyone know for sure? Are the fittings made from iron or silver? How long is the dagger itself (I could then calculate all other measurements by use of the overall picture of the whole set)? Maybe anyone has some additional pictures, especially from the side (to estimate the thickness of the bollocks and the blade.
It would really be great, if you could help me out with one or another of those details!
Thanks in advance,

Torsten Titel (from Germany)
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 01 Jan, 2008 11:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is one of my favorite daggers:



According to the Wallace Collection catalogue, here is the description:

Quote:
Circular Flat cap fastened to the tang by a small silver button; the grip, which is separated from the pommel by a brass washer, is of maple wood; it is of round section and tapers towards the quillons, where it expands into two kidney-shaped lobes, hence the name; from these project two small guards of steel, extending over the blade; the latter is single-edged, and of strong, triangular section. A maker's mark is inlaid in brass on one side.

L. blade 10 1/4; w. 3/4; wt. 8 1/2 ounces


I've never seen a picture of it from the side.

Happy

ChadA

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Torsten Titel




Location: Germany
Joined: 23 Dec 2007

Posts: 17

PostPosted: Tue 01 Jan, 2008 2:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks a lot for this swift and extremely helpful answer!
I already ordered the catalogue...
Did you ever see it in real?
Greetz,
Torsten
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 01 Jan, 2008 3:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Torsten Titel wrote:
Thanks a lot for this swift and extremely helpful answer!
I already ordered the catalogue...
Did you ever see it in real?
Greetz,
Torsten


No problm. Happy I have indeed seen it in person. I visited the Wallace Collection a few years ago and even wrote an article on it (on this website's Features Page). I didn't spend a great deal of time studying any one piece--there'sa lot to see there--so I'm afraid I can't provide much more info than what's in the photo and the catalogue.

Happy

ChadA

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Tue 01 Jan, 2008 8:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Bollock Dagger A732 from Wallace Collection         Reply with quote

Torsten Titel wrote:

This is my favourite original of a Bollock, so I would like to have it reproduced as close to the original as possible.

Torsten Titel (from Germany)


Don't know if this one by A & A is close enough to the original for you, but it is based on it and close enough in type if not as ornate.

http://www.arms-n-armor.com/dagg199.html

Less expensive than a true custom piece but probably quicker to get.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Torsten Titel




Location: Germany
Joined: 23 Dec 2007

Posts: 17

PostPosted: Wed 02 Jan, 2008 5:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks so far for the links. Both reproductions are quite good. The advantage of the A&A version is that it comes as a whole set. I would have to redo the scabbard (tip and adornments) but that's about it. It's to scale with the original and the grip seems to be made of maple wood.
Thanks again and greetings,

Torsten
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Gordon Clark




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Jan, 2008 7:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can also recommend Justin King. A couple of pics of a custom dagger he made me:

Gordon



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Leonardo Daneluz




Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Jan, 2008 6:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Years ago a local silversmith asked me to do a reproduction of the blade. I saw the finished work and it was amazing, even when it is not an exact reproduction it really looks like an antique.
Since I no longer make blades for other people may be itīs fair to post it here. (Check the other dirks in the site):



http://www.orkneyjoyas.com.ar/productos/dirks/dirk3.htm

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Torsten Titel




Location: Germany
Joined: 23 Dec 2007

Posts: 17

PostPosted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 1:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks again for those two additional examples! Beautifully made!
I decided to address the Wallace Collection staff itself for more pictures and details. I got in contact with a excedingly nice picture librarian - Nell by name - who could find 13 pics of this dagger. I already ordered the CD along with a licence to reproduce this dagger for my own purpose.
I will ask her, if I can post those pictures - if anyone's interested in additional pics of this beautiful dagger.
As soon as I hear of her, I'll post it here.
Greetz,
Torsten
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Torsten Titel




Location: Germany
Joined: 23 Dec 2007

Posts: 17

PostPosted: Tue 15 Jan, 2008 9:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi again!
I just received the pictures from the Wallace Collection. This dagger is a real beauty! A really thick blade (as thick as the quillons) and a flawless overall finish.
Btw - it's not dated to the 15th century as stated in the feature on Ballock Daggers, but to 1540 to 1560.
The pics are awesome! The most interesting thing about the set is that ther is a belt clip on the scabbard.... ..no kidding - a real belt clip like the ones on belt pouches for mobile phones!
Unfortunately I'm not allowed to post the pics in any forum... Cry
But if anyone interested in this dagger wants to know any details - feel free to send me a mail...
Wink

Torsten
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 15 Jan, 2008 10:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Torsten Titel wrote:

Btw - it's not dated to the 15th century as stated in the feature on Ballock Daggers, but to 1540 to 1560.


Our date is pulled from the James Mann cataloguing of the collection. They must have revised their dating of it (again).

Happy

ChadA

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Tue 15 Jan, 2008 10:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Torsten Titel wrote:

Btw - it's not dated to the 15th century as stated in the feature on Ballock Daggers, but to 1540 to 1560.


Our date is pulled from the James Mann cataloguing of the collection. They must have revised their dating of it (again).


This specific dagger maybe they are right to revise their date for it but it might be nice to know why ?
What is more useful is to know what dates might be credible for similar daggers in the same style: Something like 1450 at the earliest and still made in 1600 in some backwater ? Just as an example: I'm not stating that this is the case or the right range of occurrence for ballock daggers in this style.

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Torsten Titel




Location: Germany
Joined: 23 Dec 2007

Posts: 17

PostPosted: Tue 15 Jan, 2008 1:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I totally agree. In my humble opinion this dagger fits perfectly well in the style of the late 15th century.
It was a real disappointment for me as well, because I'm in a Living History group reenacting German troops of 1475 - so this dagger doesn't apply any more... Cry
So it was really dated differently by Mann? I wonder why they switched? If they identified the inlaid maker's mark, they wouldn't have to guess its origin. Strange...
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Felix R.




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PostPosted: Tue 15 Jan, 2008 1:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Torsten, what did you do to make the Wallace folks answer you? I now send two emails to them and never got an answer!
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 15 Jan, 2008 8:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Torsten Titel wrote:
I totally agree. In my humble opinion this dagger fits perfectly well in the style of the late 15th century.
It was a real disappointment for me as well, because I'm in a Living History group reenacting German troops of 1475 - so this dagger doesn't apply any more... Cry
So it was really dated differently by Mann? I wonder why they switched? If they identified the inlaid maker's mark, they wouldn't have to guess its origin. Strange...


The Mann catalogues date it 1450-1460. The older Guy Laking Wallace Collection catalogues had it somewhere around 1520 (if I recall correctly; I no longer own that catalogue).

There are a good number of other 15th century ballock daggers, though; many of them are quite beautiful. I just had one recreated.

Happy

ChadA

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Torsten Titel




Location: Germany
Joined: 23 Dec 2007

Posts: 17

PostPosted: Tue 15 Jan, 2008 8:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Felix:

What address did you use? There's is a specific email address for 'enquiries regarding works of art in the collection':

collections@wallacecollection.org

I emailed them between X-mas and New Year's Eve and the answer of their picture librarian arrived at January 2nd.
Since then I received five emails from her as well as a mail from Rebecca Wallis, the Curatorial Assistant.
I wish you better luck with this address... Wink

Greetz,

Torsten
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Justin King
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PostPosted: Wed 16 Jan, 2008 5:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would love to see pics of that belt clip, I've suspected these existed but have never seen one. Thanks in any case for sharing your experience with the Wallace Collection and obtaining photos, there is at least one dagger there that I might get pics of for my own purposes.
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