[Ken Speed]

All,


My grandfather enlisted in the Canadian Cavalry during WW I. Luckily for him and me ,I guess, when he was shipped to England from Canada they switched the Cavalry to armor. I guess they'd figured out that horses and horsemen didn't do well against machine guns. Luckily for both of us again, the war was over before his training was completed.
I remember asking my grandfather about his sword and he told me that it had a straight, pointed and unsharpened blade about the circumference of his thumb and that it was unsharpened so that the horses didn't get cut. He said it was a stabbing weapon but it was heavy enough that it would break a man's shoulder or skull if he was struck with it. I wonder if anyone can tell me what model of sword this was or show me what this sword looked like.


Thanks,


Ken Speed

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Ken,
Was your grandfather an officer or enlisted man? Enlisted men would have carried the British Pattern 1908 Cavalry Trooper's Sword and Officers would have carried the Pattern 1912 Cavalry Officer's Sword. The swords basically the same except the officers' swords were a bit fancier. Here is a wikipedia article: 1908 and 1912 Cavalry Swords.

Pattern 1908


Pattern 1912


I hope that helps!

Jonathan

[Shahril Dzulkifli]

Ken,
If your grandfather was a Cavalry Trooper he must be carrying this sword. Maybe this sword, which dates from 1885, was used by both the British and Canadian cavalries during WWI. It is still used in military parades today, I think.

[Jonathan Hopkins]

[Shahril Dzulkifli]

Looks like I made a mistake. I thought that was the sword used by the Canadian Cavalry during WWI.

[Ken Speed]

Thank you for the responses,


My grandfather told me an interesting story about their retraining. He said that when the Canadians were being retrained as armor they were put under the command of British officers. Apparently one of these officers struck a Canadian with his swagger stick, "Veddy British. Don't you know" Well, these were a bunch of farmers and cowboys from Manitoba and Saskatchewan and hitting one with a switch wasn't a real smart thing to do." The trooper punched the officer. Naturally, the British wanted him to be executed for striking an officer but the Canadians essentially revolted and rather than try to arrest an entire body of troops the British officers were replaced by the Canadian officers and the trooper was not executed.

Thanks again,



Ken Speed

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Flogging (putting a soldier to the lash) was abolished in the British Army in 1881 as a result of Cardwell's Army reforms: http://www.victorianweb.org/history/armyrefs.html , so it seems strange that death would be considered an appropriate sentence for a ranker who had struck an officer.

Jonathan

[Ken Speed]

Jonathan,

You wrote, "... it seems strange that death would be considered an appropriate sentence for a ranker who had struck an officer." Well, yeah, but the British weren't known for being particularly humanitarian to anybody ever. But consider for a moment, this is a story told to me when I was a boy by my grandfather roughly fifty years after the event and which I now related to those of you on this website. I can assure you I'm not a little boy any more, do the math, this occurred approximately one hundred years ago. Maybe they were just going to lock him up for twenty years or so, does it really make a difference?

I can tell you that, in general, striking an officer is very severely punished by any military organization. In Britain, at the time, during an active war, when you have British officers in charge of men who they almost certainly thought of as ignorant clodhoppers or worse, who knows? Neither of us were there and for that I think we should both be grateful.

Best regards,

Ken Speed

[Jonathan Hopkins]

I am glad I was not there and I did not intend to dishonour your grandfather's memory of his service.

Jonathan

[Shahril Dzulkifli]

Jonathan, the 1908 and 1912 British cavalry swords have a kind of 'odd' hilts, I think. Their handles are bent and have bowl-like guards unlike most cavalry swords with straight hilts and curved guards.

[Lafayette C Curtis]

Odd? I wouldn't think so--it's just a "pistol grip" designed for more convenient use in thrusting, since these sword forms were optimized for the thrust rather than the cut (although I think there are instances of them being sharpened and successfully used to cut unarmored targets).

[Shahril Dzulkifli]

Well, these swords just don't look odd to me but they look like fencing swords.

[Lafayette C Curtis]

Of course they do! They're thrusting swords and were meant to be used with fencing techniques modified for use on horseback. Take a look at this mounted swordsmanship exercise manual:

http://www.pattonhq.com/saber.html

Even though it's American rather than British, it's contemporary to the British cavalry swords in question and the techniques used would be very similar.

[Shahril Dzulkifli]

Lafayette, to me the Patton cavalry sword looks similar to the swords shown above judging by its blade while its handle is a bit different, though.

[Anders Backlund]

[Ken Speed]

All,

I'm very happy that my insignificant question has ballooned into a topic of discussion and I want to thank everybody for their help and generosity in sharing their knowledge. Does anyone know of a likely source to buy one of these swords and what the approximate price range would be?

I've seen a couple of the Patton Swords in antique shops but they seem like much heavier swords than the British ones appear to be. Although I may be deceived because in one case I'm looking at a photo and in the other case I'm looking at the thing in actuality,

Ken Speed

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Ken,
It depends on whether or not you are looking for a replica or an original. I have PMed you with some options for either.

Jonathan

[D Critchley]

[Jeff Demetrick]

[Ken Speed]

All,


Thanks to all of you for your assistance.



Ken Speed