Author |
Message |
Dawit Koho
|
|
|
|
T. Johannesson
Location: Lund Joined: 30 Oct 2007
Posts: 7
|
Posted: Sun 16 Dec, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
spotted the person in the lower right: Is he wearing his panzer OVER his mail? An artist that misunderstood or did they do that?
|
|
|
|
Elling Polden
|
Posted: Sun 16 Dec, 2007 2:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yes, they did.
Most commonly this was done by cavalry, (though it is seldom depicted. Maybe its breaks with the stereotype image of the knight.) or by other people that would get shot at a lot, and not move to much, like besiegers. (as shown)
Adding to much padding under the mail will reduce mobility. However, adding a short sleeved or sleeveless outer gambeson will be less in the way.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
|
|
|
|
T. Johannesson
Location: Lund Joined: 30 Oct 2007
Posts: 7
|
Posted: Sun 16 Dec, 2007 2:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Sounds like a good move. ^^
But do they skip an inner layer of protection under the mail or do the have 2 layers of panzer? If so, how thick are the each of the layers?
|
|
|
|
Elling Polden
|
Posted: Sun 16 Dec, 2007 3:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
They keep the inner layer.
From the Kingsmirror, norwegian ca 1250;
"The rider himself should be equipped in this wise: he should wear good soft breeches made of soft and thoroughly blackened linen cloth, which should reach up to the belt; outside these, good mail hose which should come up high enough to be girded on with a double strap; over these he must have good trousers made of linen cloth of the sort that I have already described; finally, over these he should have good knee-pieces madeof thick iron and rivets hard as steel. Above and next to the body he should Wear a soft gambison, which need not come lower than to the middle of, the thigh. Over this he must have a strong breastplate made of good iron covering the body from the nipples to the trousers belt; outside this, a well-made hauberk and over the hauberk a firm gambison made in the manner which I have already described but without sleeves. He must have a dirk § and two swords, one girded on and another hanging from the pommel of the saddle. On his head he must have a dependable helmet made of good steel and provided with a visor. He must also have a strong, thick shield fastened to a durable shoulder belt and, in addition, a good sharp spear with a firm shaft and pointed with fine steel. Now it seems needless to speak further about the equipment of men who fight on horseback; there are, however, other weapons which a mounted warrior may use, if he wishes; among these are the "horn bow" and the weaker crossbow, which a man can easily draw even when on horseback, and certain other weapons, too, if he should want them."
On a scandinavian note, the inner padding is called a "Våpentrøye" , while the independent or outer armour is "panzar". In some of the law text one speaks of "våpentrøye AND panzar or mail", indicating that one could possibly use the sleeveless panzer over the long sleeved våpentrøye, as previously mentioned
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
|
|
|
|
Brian Boll
|
Posted: Sun 16 Dec, 2007 9:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Does anybody have a good idea of why there are so many bronze-hilted swords depicted in the Maciejowski Bible ? There are some instances of silver-hued ones, but they seem rather rarer than the bronze. Was bronze really so prevalent during this time period ?
|
|
|
|
Luka Borscak
|
Posted: Mon 17 Dec, 2007 5:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="Elling Polden"]They keep the inner layer.
...Over this he must have a strong breastplate made of good iron covering the body from the nipples to the trousers belt...
What would such breastplate look like? Would it be one solid plate for the front part of the body, or coat of plates, or what?
|
|
|
|
Elling Polden
|
Posted: Mon 17 Dec, 2007 9:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="Luka Borscak"] Elling Polden wrote: | They keep the inner layer.
...Over this he must have a strong breastplate made of good iron covering the body from the nipples to the trousers belt...
What would such breastplate look like? Would it be one solid plate for the front part of the body, or coat of plates, or what? |
Its a Coat of plate, of some sort. This is 1250 after all. Probably a quite simple variety as well. The word used in the kingsmirror is "Brystberjar", lit "chest protector". The later law texts use "Plata" wich just means "plate"
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
|
|
|
|
David A. Counts
|
Posted: Wed 19 Dec, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject: Examples of medieval "choppers" |
|
|
I just sold this book, so I can't scan the photo in question, but ...
Maurizio Mauro’s ARMERIA DELLA ROCCA MOSTRA DI ARMI ANTICHE … 1989 … 140 pgs … b/w illus… TEXT in ITALIAN … great trivia … have you been fascinated by those “chopper” type weapons that appear in the 13th C. Maciejowski Bible … this catalogue has a surviving 18th C. weapon that is almost identical - down to the "umbrella" like grip/handle …( oh yeah, the choppers do show up in other 13th c. manuscript illustrations also where they are clearly differentiated from falchions). I would be curious about what folks think of the 14th C. "choppers" that show up in "The Romance of Alexander" ... comparable to the Maciejowski Bible as a visual treasure house of arms and armour ... visored great helms, coats of plates with plates on the outside as well as inside, some really wild chopper style weaponry, etc.
David ... who is no longer researching armour but who once had this same fascination and could not resist a reply.
David A. Counts
Birmingham, AL
|
|
|
|
Sean Smith
|
Posted: Wed 19 Dec, 2007 8:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The "chest protector" could be the leather curie mentioned in the Assise of Arms at the end of the 12th century. Or something along the lines of the armoured surcoat of St. Maurice. I would be hesitant to call it a full breastplate this early on.
|
|
|
|
Elling Polden
|
Posted: Thu 20 Dec, 2007 6:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
Well, it SAYS it's supposed to be made out of good iron, and Coats of Plate are known from the period, so I assume that is what they mean.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum
|
All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum
|