Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Question about a sword in the Cluny Museum Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,646

PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 5:13 pm    Post subject: Question about a sword in the Cluny Museum         Reply with quote

Anybody know any information about the sword in this picture?

Supposedly it is in the Museum Cluny, Paris, France. I'm trying to find out more about its background; construction, who it belonged too, stats, more photos and all of that. It made it into a museum and appears to be in good shape so I'm thinking it might have a bit of a tale to tell and I'm curious whether anybody knows anything about it around here.

"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd


Last edited by Joe Fults on Mon 27 Aug, 2007 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,310

PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 7:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I zoomed in on the card next to the sword and I can read: Italian or German sword 15th century in French.

Smaller and almost impossible to read I can see something about what collection it's from but can't quite make it out.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,646

PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 7:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean,

Thanks...that's more than I knew a few minutes ago! Big Grin

"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
View user's profile Send private message
Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,646

PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 7:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

BTW...I got the photo from the ARMA Bohemia website.

Not sure where they got it from.

"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
View user's profile Send private message
Mathieu Harlaut




Location: Paris-France
Joined: 14 Dec 2004

Posts: 45

PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2007 4:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,

I took this picture several years ago. It ended up on Arma Bohemia through the Company of Saynt George mailing-list. The sword is in the National Medieval museum aka "Hotel de Cluny" in Paris.

There is not much more to tell about it. I can give you the name of the collector who owned it before giving it to the museum.
It is quite an anonymous sword, nothing particular about it apart from the fact that it is very well preserved. The handle is in very good shape, very interesting especially it shows how the "rainguard" is connected to the grip. BTW, the rainguard has been most certainly cut and repaired.

The blade is a very norrow and thick type XVa blade. The cross is faceted on only one side, as it is usual for this type.

I believe it is certainly German as many sword of this type are visible on German art and in German musuem.
View user's profile Send private message
Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,646

PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2007 8:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mathieu Harlaut wrote:
Hello,

I took this picture several years ago. It ended up on Arma Bohemia through the Company of Saynt George mailing-list. The sword is in the National Medieval museum aka "Hotel de Cluny" in Paris.

There is not much more to tell about it. I can give you the name of the collector who owned it before giving it to the museum.
It is quite an anonymous sword, nothing particular about it apart from the fact that it is very well preserved. The handle is in very good shape, very interesting especially it shows how the "rainguard" is connected to the grip. BTW, the rainguard has been most certainly cut and repaired.

The blade is a very norrow and thick type XVa blade. The cross is faceted on only one side, as it is usual for this type.

I believe it is certainly German as many sword of this type are visible on German art and in German musuem.


Mathieu,

Thanks so much for the reply and information.

By chance do you have any other photos of it?

"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
View user's profile Send private message
Jeroen Averhals




Location: Flanders, Belgium
Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 66

PostPosted: Wed 29 Aug, 2007 8:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe,

this type of sword appears in some of Albrechts Dürer's works.

The Knight, the Death and the Devil (1513)
Knight in armor (1498)
Apocalypse wood carvings (1498)

Maybe this can help you dating the blade.

Jeroen Averhals

Vigor et Veritas
View user's profile Send private message
Mathieu Harlaut




Location: Paris-France
Joined: 14 Dec 2004

Posts: 45

PostPosted: Wed 29 Aug, 2007 2:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have other pictures. Mostly close up of the cross and grip. I'll post them as soon as I have time.
View user's profile Send private message
Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,646

PostPosted: Wed 29 Aug, 2007 3:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mathieu Harlaut wrote:
I have other pictures. Mostly close up of the cross and grip. I'll post them as soon as I have time.


Thank you!!

"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
View user's profile Send private message
Mathieu Harlaut




Location: Paris-France
Joined: 14 Dec 2004

Posts: 45

PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug, 2007 2:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are most of the picture of the sword. Sorry, some are blurry, particularly the ones showing the full sword. The pictures were made in 2000 and the camera wasn't the best.

I hope you will find what you are looking for. If you are looking for something specific, let me know. I go to the musuem regularly and I might take other pictures if you need.



 Attachment: 48.9 KB
SwGr1.jpg


 Attachment: 32.69 KB
SwGrHdl1.jpg


 Attachment: 38.57 KB
SwGrHdl3.jpg


 Attachment: 37.77 KB
SwGrHdl4.jpg


 Attachment: 35.44 KB
SwGrHdl5.jpg


 Attachment: 29.69 KB
SwGrHdl7_2.jpg


 Attachment: 33.63 KB
SwGrHdl8.jpg


 Attachment: 33.58 KB
SwGrHdl9.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Mathieu Harlaut




Location: Paris-France
Joined: 14 Dec 2004

Posts: 45

PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug, 2007 2:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some more pictures.


 Attachment: 38.51 KB
SwGrHilt1.jpg


 Attachment: 31.09 KB
SwGrPom3.jpg


 Attachment: 33.84 KB
SwHdl6.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Mathieu Harlaut




Location: Paris-France
Joined: 14 Dec 2004

Posts: 45

PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug, 2007 2:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And a picture of the pommel that Peter Johnsson took as inspiration for the Albion Burgundian.


 Attachment: 101.66 KB
SwHdl2.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Mathieu Harlaut




Location: Paris-France
Joined: 14 Dec 2004

Posts: 45

PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug, 2007 2:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And for those you like rondel daggers. It is off-topic t since the dagger is half a meter away from the sword…

The dagger is said to be 14th century by the musuem, but when compared with period artwork it is clearly 15th century. Many burgundian piece of art show such dagger: the tapestry in Bern and above all the portrait of Charles the Bols by Van der Weyden.



 Attachment: 37.33 KB
IMG_0745.jpg


 Attachment: 50.03 KB
IMG_0752-1.jpg


 Attachment: 36.92 KB
IMG_0760-1.jpg


 Attachment: 34.72 KB
IMG_0774-1.jpg


 Attachment: 33.9 KB
IMG_0775.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,646

PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug, 2007 3:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mathieu,

Given that some museums won't let you take photos, getting something from any collection of originals is a treat. I really appreciate you taking the time to share these with us.

Best,
Joe

"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
View user's profile Send private message
Fabrice Cognot
Industry Professional



Location: Dijon
Joined: 29 Sep 2004

Posts: 354

PostPosted: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 4:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

..guess who had the chance to play (however liitedly) with this particular sword - and the dagger too - last Tuesday ?

Cool

Though unfortunately, I couldn't take pics.


I wasn't really able to swing the sword around too much, as I was under close scrutiny from the curator (though I hope to make amend for that soon), but I can tell you that just from picking it up, it really is a treat ! I had too little time to study it from any closer, unfortunately. But it certainly works as fine when held one-handed than two-handed. Point response was immediate even one handed, and yet you could feel the strength and stiffness in the blade. A very fine example of an early XVIth century sword (or very late XVth).

The dagger is equally interesting. The back of the blade is flat, and its sides are hollow-ground, making it in addition of the cylindrical roundels a really light weapon, yet still feeling quite effective.

That fish-tail pommel sword (who possibly belonged to a Duke of Milan in the XVth century) was on loan to another museum, unfortunately. But I should be able to study it soon. Hopefully.


Joe : I could ask the curator for more info on the background of that sword if you'd like. Just be patient.

Cheers

Fab

PhD in medieval archeology.
HEMAC member
De Taille et d'Estoc director
Maker of high quality historical-inspired pieces.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mathieu Harlaut




Location: Paris-France
Joined: 14 Dec 2004

Posts: 45

PostPosted: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 4:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Fabrice,

You should have told me I would have come with you as your document carrier! :-)

Seriously the next time you come to Paris, it would be nice to meet each other.
View user's profile Send private message
Fabrice Cognot
Industry Professional



Location: Dijon
Joined: 29 Sep 2004

Posts: 354

PostPosted: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 5:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No worries Matthieu, I'll let you know Happy
PhD in medieval archeology.
HEMAC member
De Taille et d'Estoc director
Maker of high quality historical-inspired pieces.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Russ Ellis
Industry Professional




Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Posts: 2,608

PostPosted: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 6:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing the extra photos! I particularly like the roping around the edge of the pommel.
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
View user's profile Send private message
Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,646

PostPosted: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 8:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fabrice Cognot wrote:
..guess who had the chance to play (however liitedly) with this particular sword - and the dagger too - last Tuesday ?

Cool

Though unfortunately, I couldn't take pics.


I wasn't really able to swing the sword around too much, as I was under close scrutiny from the curator (though I hope to make amend for that soon), but I can tell you that just from picking it up, it really is a treat ! I had too little time to study it from any closer, unfortunately. But it certainly works as fine when held one-handed than two-handed. Point response was immediate even one handed, and yet you could feel the strength and stiffness in the blade. A very fine example of an early XVIth century sword (or very late XVth).

The dagger is equally interesting. The back of the blade is flat, and its sides are hollow-ground, making it in addition of the cylindrical roundels a really light weapon, yet still feeling quite effective.

That fish-tail pommel sword (who possibly belonged to a Duke of Milan in the XVth century) was on loan to another museum, unfortunately. But I should be able to study it soon. Hopefully.


Joe : I could ask the curator for more info on the background of that sword if you'd like. Just be patient.

Cheers

Fab


Fabrice,

That would be very nice.

If you could get any statistics...well that would be very nice too.

-Joe

"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
View user's profile Send private message
Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,646

PostPosted: Sun 09 Sep, 2007 2:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For those interested in trivia, I looking at some options to get a replica of this sword created.

If Fabrice really is is able to dig up a bit more information about it sometime in the future, I think the project will be very exciting.

Big Grin

"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Question about a sword in the Cluny Museum
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum