| Author |
Message |
|
Kjell Magnusson
|
 Posted: Wed 15 Aug, 2007 5:38 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Addison C. de Lisle wrote: | | Out of curiosity, are there any decent modern makers for these? |
Lutel has a "two handed warhammer" (#17017), maybe that one would fit the bill?
|
|
  |
 |
Jason G. Smith
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joe Fults
|
| Posted: Wed 15 Aug, 2007 8:34 am Post subject: Re: Some ideas. |
|
|
| Mike West wrote: | | Addison C. de Lisle wrote: | | Out of curiosity, are there any decent modern makers for these? |
...A & A's custom pieces cost quite a bit as well. |
Since I actually commissioned one of the A&A custom jobs, I can tell you that it cost quite a bit less than you think it cost. Its always worth asking them if you are interested in getting something custom done. If the cost does end up being more than you can stand, just don't do it. That said, I've always been surprised at how much less A&A custom work ends up costing than I initially expect it to cost.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joe Fults
|
| Posted: Wed 15 Aug, 2007 8:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Hugh Knight wrote: | got my original steel pollaxe from a company in Czechoslovakia via Therion Arms, but they no longer carry them. There's a new company carrying a very similar one in Eastern Europe now, and they have one in stock, but I don't know what shipping would be like (go to the bottom of the page):
http://www.armabohemia.cz/Novestr/handA.htm |
Hugh,
I've talked with them extensively. As it currently stands they cannot get something that long shipped to the US, but at one point they gave me a shipping quote of almost $200. Might be able to get them to do the bits unmounted and then do final assembly yourself. English is good and communications is fine, if not always with a sense of urgency. 
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
|
|
|
|
|
Addison C. de Lisle
|
| Posted: Wed 15 Aug, 2007 8:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
The Lutel one does look nice, and a good price point as well. I thought that A&A would probably be able to do a custom one if I asked, but right now I'm just looking around for future reference. I really like the pictures of the original ones that have been posted, so that piqued my interest. Thanks for your help 
www.addisondelisle.com
|
|
 |
|
Hugo Voisine
|
| Posted: Wed 15 Aug, 2007 9:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Jason,
I've heard some bad things about those in the past, like the wood being too brittle some times... apparently the metal parts are good however...
Let us know how good they are.
« Que dites-vous ?... C'est inutile ?... Je le sais !
Mais on ne se bat pas dans l'espoir du succès !
Oh ! non, c'est bien plus beau lorsque c'est inutile ! »
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nicholas Zeman
|
| Posted: Wed 15 Aug, 2007 10:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
I recently read "The Last Duel" about the last judicial duel fought in France between La Carrouges and Le Gris, and there was specific mention of shortened war axes that the two used from horseback after the lances were broken.
Hugh, do you have any knowledge of this kind of use of basically a modified or shortened pollaxe that was used from horseback? From my study of the Italian sources it would seem that there was a great deal of variation in length of the weapon, as the Fiore Getty manuscript shows pretty short weapons, possibly not as tall as the man using it, however the Pisani-Dossi shows a much longer and beefier hafted weapon. Vadi's pollaxes are even bogger (as is his spear). This could be chalked up to variations in the art, variations in preference, or a progression to longer pollaxes as we head into the 15th century proper (as Fiore was really a product of the 14th century although his manuscripts were penned in the dawn of the 15th). It would be interesting to see if there was an evolution of the weapon, it's use and length of the haft.
|
|
|
|
|
Chuck Russell
|
| Posted: Wed 15 Aug, 2007 10:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
lutel makes a nice bec. i have one.
Number in catalogue 17017
Name Two-Handed War Hammer
Description Central Europe - 15th centrury Head, spike, four striking flukes, with langets, made without wooden pole. Head length 23 cm, weight 1,2 kg.
Last edited by Chuck Russell on Wed 15 Aug, 2007 3:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
|
  |
|
|
Hugh Knight
|
| Posted: Wed 15 Aug, 2007 12:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Nicholas Zeman wrote: | | I recently read "The Last Duel" about the last judicial duel fought in France between La Carrouges and Le Gris, and there was specific mention of shortened war axes that the two used from horseback after the lances were broken. |
Hi Nicholas,
I have that book and I can't find any reference in it to cut-off axes; Jager just says that when they broke their lances they pulled axes and went to work. Are you perhaps confusing the broken lance shaft Carrouges pulled from his shield with the axe he pulled from its saddle ring (p. 171)?
Incidentally, while Jager's overall historical facts may be good (although he should be boiled in oil for his lack of references and footnotes), his information about 14th-century armored combat is extremely innacurate, so be wary of anything he says. For example, on p. 174 he says that Carrouges pulled his sword: "This was the shorter, one-handed blade--or estoc--worn on his belt." Now this blade may have been an estoc, but the vast majority of estocs (or tucks) I have seen are two handed. It's far more likely this was simply a typical 14th-century type XV arming sword, and Jager confused it with the tuck because both are kind of pointy. Then on p. 176 he says that Le Gris was unable to rise to his feet because of the weight of his armor; because of his exhaustion, or because of the shock of being knocked down possibly, but because of the weight of his armor? Hollywood nonsense. Then on p. 177 he compounds the error by saying "fallen knights were often butchered like lobsters in their own shells". On p. 178 Jager says that Carrouges fumbled with the lock holding Le Gris' visor shut; nonsense, there's no evidence for any such lock this early. Jager makes a lot of claims about details of this duel (e.g., that Carrouges intended to use the Bec of his axe to strike), but his lack of documentation combined with his obvious lack of understanding of the armor and weapons of the day casts a deep and long shadow of doubt over everything he wrote.
| Quote: | | Hugh, do you have any knowledge of this kind of use of basically a modified or shortened pollaxe that was used from horseback? |
As I said, that's not what my copy of The Last Duel specified. It's far more likely the axe in question was simply a hand axe of this sort:
http://www.museumreplicas.com/museumreplicas/detail.aspx?ID=795
The heads on most pollaxes that actually had axe blades on them were much too large for a one-handed fighting axe, so I sincerely doubt this one was cut down and used on horseback.
| Quote: | | From my study of the Italian sources it would seem that there was a great deal of variation in length of the weapon, as the Fiore Getty manuscript shows pretty short weapons, possibly not as tall as the man using it, however the Pisani-Dossi shows a much longer and beefier hafted weapon. Vadi's pollaxes are even bogger (as is his spear). This could be chalked up to variations in the art, variations in preference, or a progression to longer pollaxes as we head into the 15th century proper (as Fiore was really a product of the 14th century although his manuscripts were penned in the dawn of the 15th). It would be interesting to see if there was an evolution of the weapon, it's use and length of the haft. |
Well, as I said previously, pollaxes varied dramatically, but I haven't seen any tendency for them to change in length over time; I suspect it's always just been a matter of preference for the user. I *do* think the style of axe has changed a bit; the majority (not 100%!) of 14th-century sources and most 16th-century sources seem to favor the Axe+Spike-style axe, whereas most 15th-century sources seem to favor either the Hammer+Spike style (all the Fechtbücher, and even the Italians) or the Blade+Hammer style (most non-Fechtbuch iconography), and that's not surprising since the latter two types were probably used much alike (with the axe blade acting not as a cutting weapon but as a hook).
The weight of the weapon also varied dramatically, as did the style of construction: In the first part of Talhoffer's Alte Armatur und Ringkunst we see light, almost delicate axes of sort of generic construction:
http://base.kb.dk/pls/hsk_web/hsk_vis.side?p_...p_lang=eng
whereas in the latter part of the book he shows a beefier and more clearly-defined weapon:
http://base.kb.dk/pls/hsk_web/hsk_vis.side?p_...p_lang=eng
My suspicion is that this represents a practice weapon (which is why the figures are drawn out of armor--there's no evidence for the pollaxe being an unarmored form) versus a real weapon.
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
|
|
|
|
|
Jason G. Smith
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hugh Knight
|
| Posted: Wed 15 Aug, 2007 2:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
In addition to the quality questions someone else raised, you have to think carefully about the purpose for which you intend the axe. While reasonably accurate, historically speaking, for martial arts practice these are very problematic because of the sharp points on both the mail and the dague. Axes with a smoother mail (e.g., with the waffle design) and a pyramidal dague make for much safer practice without sacrificing accuracy. I would also make them slightly longer by replacing the haft.
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
|
|
|
|
|
|
Christopher Lee
Location: Sunshine Coast, Australia Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 160
|
| Posted: Wed 15 Aug, 2007 6:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks everyone for their contributions.
What sparked this thread was that I was thinking about getting a Talhoffer type pole hammer made and was wondering if it was a realistic and effective weapon.
So as I understand the general points so far, the pole arm in Talhoffer should more accurately be referred to as a pole hammer rather than a poleaxe;
While there are no surviving examples of this particular head type there was a very wide variation in styles and that the heads depicted in Talhoffer would be consistent with the history and development of pole arms. Also, a head similar to the Talhoffer type would be an effective weapon and was not just artistic licence. My only concern is that the striking head seems a little long; is that just the representation rather than the actual dimensions of the weapon? I’m just wondering if the length of the head would make it liable to “roll” over on impact? Maybe I’m just not particularly experienced in pole arms. Would anyone hazard a guess as to the dimensions of the head?
The Lutel two handed war hammer (#17017) looks to be a lovely piece of work and I’m seriously wondering if I can afford it???
C
|
|
|
|
|
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
|
| Posted: Wed 15 Aug, 2007 6:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Christopher Lee wrote: |
So as I understand the general points so far, the pole arm in Talhoffer should more accurately be referred to as a pole hammer rather than a poleaxe;
|
A poleaxe doesn't have to have an axe head, of course. The term "pole hammer" isn't very common. "Poleaxe" is better in my opinion.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
|
|
 |
|
|
Hugh Knight
|
| Posted: Wed 15 Aug, 2007 6:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Christopher Lee wrote: | | So as I understand the general points so far, the pole arm in Talhoffer should more accurately be referred to as a pole hammer rather than a poleaxe; |
Absolutely not. It's a pollaxe, and that's how it was referred to in period. "Pole hammer" is a modern word and should be avoided.
| Quote: | | While there are no surviving examples of this particular head type there was a very wide variation in styles and that the heads depicted in Talhoffer would be consistent with the history and development of pole arms. Also, a head similar to the Talhoffer type would be an effective weapon and was not just artistic licence. My only concern is that the striking head seems a little long; is that just the representation rather than the actual dimensions of the weapon? I’m just wondering if the length of the head would make it liable to “roll” over on impact? Maybe I’m just not particularly experienced in pole arms. Would anyone hazard a guess as to the dimensions of the head? |
We use these rubber pollaxe heads in our Schule for practice:
http://www.woodenswords.com/WMA/pole_hammer.htm
They are a pretty good match for what is shown in Talhoffer's 1467 Fechtbuch and they have no problem sticking when you strike.
And yes, heads like this make for a deadly and effective weapon.
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oliver Wiegand
Location: Germany Joined: 07 Aug 2007
Posts: 22
|
| Posted: Thu 16 Aug, 2007 3:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
Uiuiuiui, so many information about the pollaxe.
I'm a little bit confused so it would be great if someone of you can help me to get a general idea, as there are some contrairy articles and statements in web.
1.) pollaxe, poleaxe is the right term in English and not polehammer, as pole"hammer" is a new modern word, correct ?
2.) In German we use the terms Mordaxt, Fußstreitaxt or Fußstreithammer. So is Fußstreit"hammer" incorrect, too ?
Fußstreithammer for pollaxe is used in the pollaxe feature article here, too (http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spot_poleaxe.html)
3.) A pollaxe not always has an axe blade, correct ?
4.) Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poleaxe says that a pole axe is only similar but not a Bec de Corbin.
The spot light article here http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spot_poleaxe.html says that a pollaxe is the same like a Bec de Corbin. So is the article in Wikipedia not correct ?
5.) There are various lengths, correct ?
For usage on horseback there are shortened pollaxes.
But where is a difference to a warhammer if the pollaxe is short ?
Like this: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streithammer
6. Some pollaxes are so similar to halberds like the example # (A928) here http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spot_poleaxe.html from the Wallace Collection.
In what way are they different ? (please see my question #7, too)
7.) a halberd's head is always made from one piece and a pollaxe head is consisting of two pieces, correct ?
So many questions...
Best regards
Oliver
|
|
|
|
|
Benjamin H. Abbott
|
|
|
|
|
Randall Moffett
|
| Posted: Thu 16 Aug, 2007 5:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
Oliver,
I can only answer a few of them.
1). In English at least the term pollhammer I have never seen. Poleax poleaxe pollaxe pollaxe and a million other ones do come up though and some quite often. I agree with Hugh, I think it a modern or at least semi modern word.
2).I have only made a summary look into some german medieval accounts so I am not the one to help on this one.
3). a poleaxe does not need have an axe blade. If it lacks a axe blade it will have a spike or hammer usually.
4). I think a bec de corbin is a pole axe but not all poleaxes are bec de corbins. I think the name denotes the specific crows 'bec'.
5). Are pole axes used on horseback? I am not familar with this happening. I think if you are in the saddle you'd have a mace, warhammer or the like not a pole axe. The pole axe comes into being as foot combat picks up alot among knights and their class.
6). I have some trouble with some halbard/poleaxe comparisons. I think generally The halbard always has a cutting head on it though.
7). Not always. Many poleaxes I have looked at have been made of multiple parts. Usually langets and a head etc. Some halbards are also made of multiple segments though and some poleaxes are one pieced.
RPM
|
|
|
|
|
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
|
| Posted: Thu 16 Aug, 2007 6:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Oliver Wiegand wrote: | | 1.) pollaxe, poleaxe is the right term in English and not polehammer, as pole"hammer" is a new modern word, correct ? |
Correct. I don't think I've ever seen polehammer in print.
| Quote: |
2.) In German we use the terms Mordaxt, Fußstreitaxt or Fußstreithammer. So is Fußstreit"hammer" incorrect, too ?
Fußstreithammer for pollaxe is used in the pollaxe feature article here, too (http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spot_poleaxe.html) |
Fussstreithammer is a period term, so it's correct. It's used in reputable publications, too. It's not "Polehammer," though.
| Quote: |
3.) A pollaxe not always has an axe blade, correct ? |
Correct. A poleaxe, as classified by scholars, doesn't always have to have an axe blade/head.
I would hope our articles are better researched and sourced than your average Wikipedia article. I wouldn't consider Wikipedia to be a definitive source of info, just a starting point. Are our articles definitive? They're meant to whet readers' appetites. It's always a good idea to go to reputable scholarly sources.
A Bec de Corbin is a type of poleaxe. It's a subset of poleaxes.
| Quote: |
5.) There are various lengths, correct ?
For usage on horseback there are shortened pollaxes.
But where is a difference to a warhammer if the pollaxe is short ?
Like this: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streithammer |
There are various lengths to everything. There probably is a blurry line between long footman's warhammers and shortened poleaxes with hammer heads. There are many cases where items overlap terminologies when we study medieval weapons. Things simply don't always fit into one neat category. Is it a problem if something rides the line between a long footman's warhammer and a short poleaxe? Not for me.
Some people consider poleaxes an evolution of halberds. There are bound to be similarities. Since the Wallace Collection example has a very curved axe head edge, it falls more into the poleaxe category than a halberd. Halberds don't seem to regularly feature curved a rounded axe head edge. But nothing is cut and dry.
| Quote: |
7.) a halberd's head is always made from one piece and a pollaxe head is consisting of two pieces, correct ?
|
"Always"? I think we can't use absolute terms like that unless we want to be disappointed. From our poleaxe spotlight:
| Quote: | The third method of assembly was very similar to that of the halberd: The axe, the top and back spikes and the langets were all forged into a single piece with a socket for the haft. The langets offered extra stability. This method may have developed in the 16th century but was used in parallel with the other two methods.
|
So, halberds and poleaxes can share constructional features.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oliver Wiegand
Location: Germany Joined: 07 Aug 2007
Posts: 22
|
| Posted: Thu 16 Aug, 2007 1:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Great, thank you very much for your swift and helpful responses !!!
I think I could get now a general idea about the poleaxe
Best
Oliver
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nicholas Zeman
|
| Posted: Fri 17 Aug, 2007 2:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
Hugh, I will look through my copy of The Last Duel tonight, I seem to specifically recall that mention of the shortened axes for horseback but of course it could be my memory playing tricks on me. Even if I can locate a mention, it might just be the author's misunderstanding of something. I agree with you that the author's understanding of arms, armor, and combat during the 14th century was shallow at best, I also found myself raising an eyebrow or two at some of the statements about the actual duel (like the "heavy" armor, the visor lock, etc...). I did find the book highly dramatic and entertaining, as well as fair-minded and pragmatic about the events and legal case surrounding the duel.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum
|
This is a standard topic