[Brian Robson]

Hi,

I'm wondering if anyone can help with this. I heard that black was a rare colour for clothing in the 12th-13th centuries, and also that black dyes faded quickly - especially in the sun.

I'm considering depicting a hospitaller of that period. So here's the question. Would the wollen Cappa (And I suppose this applies to the standard Benedictine robes too) have actually been black? if not, then what kind of colour was it? If the colour fades in sunlight - wouldn't that fading have been especially severe ni the holy lands?

If black was so rare, why were several orders (military and religious) wearing it?

Was the black different in wool to linen?

Would the shield be painted in exactly the same pigment?

Many thanks,
Brian

[Jonathan Blair]

I stand corrected (see below).

[James Barker]

Black can be done with lots of over dyeing many colors. The Hospitallers did wear black, it was thought of as a pious color, and it is hard to say who long the black lasted. We do know that in the 13th century brothers were issued two "suits" a year that included a new mantel (monk’s robe). Also the Hospitallers wore the most up to date equipment and spent lots of money on the order so black would not be out of their price range. As a funny side note they did not indulge in expensive fashion thinking it was sinful while they used expensive cloth and top armor .

[Brian Robson]

[Michael Clark]

Are we so sure that the Hospitallers wore black? I had heard, and seen replications, that indicated that they were a deep, rich brown.

[Jean Thibodeau]

Isn't there naturally black wool coming from " black sheeps " ? If yes, is the color more durable when exposed to the Sun ?

Since black sheep are rare the wool would tend to be expensive and in limited supply: So cost of naturally black wool might be more expensive than dyed wool but would keep it deep color better.

[James Barker]

The group I am in that is kind of forming talked about using dark brown until it was point out to me that there is contemporary writings that the Hospitallers used black to distinguish themselves from another religious order that wore dark brown.

(edit to add on for Jean question)

Black sheep did exist in the middle ages but contemporary accounts tell us major producers of cloth would not use that wool as it was coarse; how ever the Greenland finds have naturally black wool mixed with brown wool. Also black wool on a sheep is not really black but a dark grey and it fades too. It is unlikely the military orders used black from black sheep.

[Ken Nelson]

Looking at our own sheep, we have two Finns, that have a very dark brown wool. At the base it is nearly black, but it does fade to a muddy brown in the sun. Their wool is similar to Jacobs wool, a medium to medium-fine. While it may not work as is, it will accept dyes. Using a dark wool with black dye should be more resistant than using either alone. I will ask Christel, as she is more involved with fiber arts than I am.

Ken

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Peter Lyon]

I have a friend who is very experienced with dyes and has experimented with them for years, so I have her to thank for this morsel of knowledge. Over the year this question on black dyes has been asked many times, so I went out of my way to learn more about it.

Black or something very near it was possible; the problem, as with most medieval dyes, was to make it colour-fast. Very bright colours were possible (screaming pink anyone? Dayglo orange? Already been done, and I've seen the colours she produced used plant dyes and various mordants - those bright manuscript colours were all possible, at least temporarily). Black could be done cheap or expensive; the cheap one was done with crushed walnut shells, using iron as a mordant (EG stew the dye in an iron pot) to make it colourfast. The result was near-black, or a very dark brown; I suppose more overdying made it darker with each repeat. The downside was that iron damages fabrics long-term, basically it makes it perish or rot, so the garment would last years but not several lifetimes. It also faded over time, but could be redyed to darken it again. Another black was possible that was more long-term and less damaging to the fabric, but I don't recall anything about how it was done, except it was much more expensive to do.

Peter Lyon

[Glennan Carnie]

Oak galls will give a very dark grey (almost black) . Logwood gives a rich black - so even and deep that it almost looks chemical-dyed.

[Brian Robson]

Thanks for all the replies!

[Taylor Ellis]

I was looking through Regia Anglorium's costume do's and dont's, and noticed they ban black clothing and leather of all descriptions. If dying black was definately possible, why would such a respected group ban it outright?

[Robin Smith]

Because even though possible, it was still quite uncommon. So as policy, most groups don't allow blacks because if they let one person use it, then others will want to use it, and then suddenly just about everyone will have some black in their kit. Its easier to outright ban it than to try and ration it out so that it doesn't become overrepresented. By far, in period black was uncommon to rare, particularly in the pre and post conquest period Regia does.

[Randall Moffett]

I do not know if it is really all that rare in period, at least the late medieval period. The accounts of incoming and outgoing items here in Southampton found in the port and brokage books are loaded with entries of black fabrics usually specifically listing the number of ells of it as well. I do not see it being all that uncommon in comparision to other colours personally but this is a major port town so likely had a number of things other towns did not have much of. If it were arriving in such quantities I doubt it would be restricted to those of any reasonable wealth though likely outside the majority of common folk. I see no problem with a person of gentle class of wealthy merchants in black. If you were an average Joe plowing a field everyday or cleaning the muck off of Watergate here it would be a different story though.

The Close rolls at times give inventories of textiles and black appears fairly often with other colours as well. These records are clearly of the wealthier tiers of society but not necessarily nobles.

I think groups ban all sort of things that likely were in use. Who knows what reasons they have at the time and place they chose to do so. I would hardly go by what any group tells you. Find a books written by someone in the know and nose it out. It is a much better system than relying on reenactorisms. Some of the most interesting 'facts' I have ever heard have come from reenactors.

RPM[/b]

[Brian Hook]

[David McElrea]

In a different thread James Barker wrote: