[Darrin Hughes]

This is my first post here so hello all.

I would just like to know if anybody here is familiar with the Sword of Charlemagne/Attila in Vienna? I am curious because I noticed a few days back that CasIberia have got a reproduction of this sword listed amongst their new products and after my initial "that looks good" reaction something about the shape of the blade began to nag at me.

I have only seen old black and white pictures of this sword, along with the line drawing in The Archeaology of Weapons, but the blade seems to have a slight curve in the bottom third, as one would expect for a cavalry saber. The Cas sword is very definitely straight with a distinct point.

Whilst I have my doubts as to whether an 8th Century Frankish king would ever have actually carried this sword, or the one in the Louvre, they are still interesting historical pieces and, as such, it would be nice if somebody could actually get one of them right.

If anybody can help with the actual appearance of this sword then it would help me decide whether to order one or not, as the reproduction does look rather attractive, I'm just not convinced that it is right.

Cheers,
Darrin.

[Dan Dickinson]

One of the hilt
http://dspace.anu.edu.au/handle/1885/13219
...I know I have a few saved of the complete sword somewhere, but can't seem to find them right now....if I do I'll post them here,
Dan

[B. Pogue]

[Darrin Hughes]

Thanks for the replies.

To Blake; The most recent prototype certainly looks more like I thought the original should. I also like the way that the hilt doesn't have the rather strange decorative rings that were added to the original.

Do you have any idea when these are likely to go into production? Or is there more work before you finalise the design?

Again, thanks for the quick response,
Cheers,
Darrin.

ps, happy to be of assistance

[B. Pogue]

Hello Darrin,

Unfortunately I do not have a timetable for production. What I can say is that we have received a finalized prototype (the piece attached above), meaning that production should begin within the next several months.

Take care,
Blake

[Darrin Hughes]

Thanks Blake.

I've just spoken to my Cas supplier (Bob at Uniquities) and now I have something of a problem. This may be a subject for another thread, but it seems that the new legislation on sword import/ownership is causing problems in that no-one seems sure exactly what is going to happen. Apparently, at the moment, a lot of the talk is about so-called Samurai swords, but others have mentioned a total ban by next April

As there are now 3 Cas swords on my wish list, a Katana, a Dao and now this Saber, there is no way I could afford to get all of them without raiding the savings, something I have no desire to do. As you can imagine this leaves me rather confused, not to mention annoyed, concerned, etc.

If anyone has more information and would like to share, perhaps as I mentioned in a new thread, it would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Darrin.

[Chad Arnow]

[Steve Grisetti]

[Darrin Hughes]

Hello Steve.

I think that the use of rayskin, or, in northern Europe, dogfish hide, goes back to the middle of the first millenium. This sword is most like a 9th/10th century Hungarian cavalry saber and so is not likely to have belonged to Charlemagne, but I don't believe that the rayskin grip would be a problem historically.
It is interesting that it is only German sources that claim the sword belonged to Charlemagne. Hungarian sources call it the Sword of God (ars isten kardja) and link it to Attila. This is even more unlikely, but as there aren't too many good reproductions of early Eastern European sabres I'm not too worried about the matter of the swords' ownership. It is still a very nice example of the type.

Cheers,
Darrin.

[B. Pogue]

[Nick Trueman]

HI

That blade shape looks fine to me, actually almost perfect comparing it to the original blade.
Blake could I ask what steel you are using for the blade? And have you constructed the hilt in the same fashion as the original? It looks like you have (ie iron guard with gold sheet covering). Can I ask what metal you have used to construct the pommel and crossguard?

The book "Ancient Hungarians" hypothesizes that the saber was constructed in Kiev, by Magyar artisans. The blade style and palmete decoration on the handle suggest a very strong Magyar influence, with maybe some Rus/Viking influence with the additional knot work.

Charlemagne has absolutely nothing to do with this saber, Ancient Hungarians refers to the saber as "Arpads saber " or
Attilas saber. Arpad being one of Magyar cheiftans during this period, who led his people into what today we call Hungary.
AT one point in history it was given to the Franks as a gift from the Kievan prince/princes. The name escapes me ATM. I would say that that is where it picked up the name Charlemagne.


Cheers

Nick

[Darrin Hughes]

AT one point in history it was given to the Franks as a gift from the Kievan prince/princes. The name escapes me ATM. I would say that that is where it picked up the name Charlemagne.

Hello Nick.

This sentence shows the problem with trying to keep track of the different stories regarding this sword. In the Hungarian version that I mentioned before in this thread, the sword was given as a gift to a Bavarian prince, sometime in the 11th century. I'm afraid I don't recall the name. The story that has Charlemagne as the recipient, actually has Harun al-Rashid as the gift-giver. As Rashid was the Abbasid Caliph at the end of the 8th century then he would have been a contemporary of Charlemagnes'. The only problem is that as far as I am aware,and I'm certainly no expert, the sword does not appear to resemble anything from Persia in the late 8th century. This begs the question how did al-Rashid come by it in the first place? It would seem to be in the wrong place and the wrong time.

This is one reason why I'm interested in this sword, not so much because of the supposed connection to Charlemagne, which I personally find unlikely, but simply because of all the stories that relate to it. It touches on the histories of any number of people in Europe and the Middle East.

Cheers,
Darrin.

[Nick Trueman]

Yes I dont think we will ever know the whole story of how it attained its name or how it came into Frankish hands.
One point though, this style of blade with the feathered tip or hammer? Is quite common in early Khazar, Magyar sabres.
Actually there are quite a few, with a much earlier dating than the Arpad saber. I know of no Arabic sabers at this point of history? As far as I know Arabic peoples were using straight 2 edged swords during the 7th-10thc? Correct me if Im wrong anyone.
Its definately not a Middle Eastern saber, it has more in common with some Alanic and Khazar sabers/palashes that were made between the 7th-10thc.

Cheers

N

[Nick Trueman]

sorry wrong pic!

N

[Darrin Hughes]

Blake/Nick.

I've been hunting all over for information about this sword and would like to put forward a couple of suggestions.

As far as the Cas prototype is concerned, I do think it looks good but, from the few old pictures I have been able to find, the back edge on the original seems to extend slightly more than halfway up the blade. On the Cas one it seems to be an almost half and half split. Again, if I am wrong, I will happily stand corrected as it is a real pain trying to find decent pictures of this sword. There is a tendency to concentrate on the hilt decoration.

There does seem to be some agreement that this sword never belonged to Charlemagne. I would suggest that the sword was never a Frankish possession at all and that the name of Charlemagne became attached to it simply because it has a greater resonance with Western Europeans than the name of Attila.

Of all the stories mentioned, the one connecting the sword to Arpad seems, to me, the most likely. As Arpad claimed descent from Attila it would make sense that he might try to strengthen his claim by saying that he had Attilas' sword. Also, we know that the early Hungarian state had strong ties with Bavaria and Bohemia including royal marriages, so it isn't difficult to see the sword being given as a gift or even part of a dowry.

As I've said before, please feel free to comment. These are just my thoughts based on what I have been able to find out so far.

Cheers,
Darrin.

[Nick Trueman]

Darrin

Sounds like a pretty good conclusion about the history of the saber.
But who knows its one of those mystery things that will always be debated over. Ok I have some pics and dimensions of the blade, dont know how I will go posting them. lets see?

N

Heres a discussion about the sabre from way back? The dimensions are correct, but I dont agree with some of the thoughts offered in the discussion. The blade clearly has a fuller. The rests sounds good.


Blade length: 75.8 cm
Length of double edged section: 49 cm

The guard is iron, covered with a gold plaque.

The grip is riveted to the tang.

Source: "The Ancient Hungarians" Hungarian National Museum: 1996

Oh, and by the way; though it doesn't show on the photos easily, the blade of the "sabre of Charlemagne" has beautiful dragon patterns on it. I sent off to the Kunsthistorisches Museum in Vienna some years ago, and they sent me scads of info on it, including close-ups, plus stuff on other similar (and equally well decorated) sabres from the same area and period, plus others used by the "Black Cap" Turkic mercenaries in Russia, which were remarkably similar. - Steven Lowe

All of the sabres I've seen from this period and even the later ones do not have solid fittings at all, the pomels are almost uniformly hollow. And I believe from close viewing of the Charlemaign's sabre one of the quilion balls is half crushed.

They move very well indeed without the weight, and are not only controllable under re-enactment combat situations but much faster on the ripost. - Quarf

There's no fuller in the blade - it is quite a complex shape; different at different parts of the blade. Near the hilt it is flat with a wedge shaped cutting edge. The flat section has the lovely dragons on it. Further down the blade it changes again - twice I think. Worth getting a good photo and having a look.

And no, it wasn't a western sword that was altered - it's far too similar to traditional steppe weapons of the period - Steven Lowe



No, there's no actual evidence, as far as I'm aware, that this sword had anything at all to do with Charlemagne. Just as the French claim Charlemagne as their greatest mediaeval hero, so the German-speakers do with "Karl der Grosse", and I guess it's a prestige thing. A sword that impressive and beautiful _must_ be associated with Charlemagne, that's all. It's also been associated in the past with Attila, with the Avars and with Haroun el Rashid, with about as much evidence.

I wrote to the Kunsthistorisches Museum in Vienna some years ago to get more info on the sword (known as "Charlemagne's sabre" to distinguish it from the "jewelled sword of Charlemagne" in the Louvre), and they were kind enough to reply in detail, with photocopies of articles on similar (almost identical) swords found in southern Russia, at Martan C^u and elsewhere. Including one with very similar form and decoration, but about half the size(!).

The article I was sent ("Altungarische Parallelen Zu Einigen Gra"berndes Alanischen Gra"berfeldes bei Martan C^u" (Old-Hungarian parallels with an Alanian Grave in the Catacombs at Martan C^u), appeared in "Arta Archaeologica Academica Scientiarum Hungaricae 35(?), 1983 (I think - the print is small and blurred) states that the sabre's closest parallel is with Alanian swords, with parallels to "Old Hungarian" (ie pre-Magyar) finds in Hungary.

This one is thought to be from the first half of the 10th century. It is 90.5cm long, with a scabbard 86.5cm long of wood leather and gold. The sword has a steel blade with "partially gilded copper inlay". The grip is wooden with fishskin, gold, and gilt/silver with precious stones.
-- Steven Lowe

Are you sure that is ray and not dogfish (a fresh water shark). The use of Dogfish for grips goes back to the dark ages. I've been told by somoene who should know (a very respected cutler) that ray was limited to the far East until the 17th Centruy. Also, this looks like the smoother portion of the skin where the bumps are small, while in the far east, the thicker skin with coarser bumps from just behid the head are prefered.

Mike

[Nick Trueman]

lets see

[Darrin Hughes]

So in old money that would make the blade around 29.5 inches with the back edge extending just over 19 inches from the tip. Roughly 2/3 of the total length. Thanks for that, it does seem to back up my original suspicion about the proportions.

Cheers,
Darrin.

ps, for Blake. I'm sorry if it seems like I'm trying to pick the Cas design apart. It's just that as I mentioned in my first post, I got quite excited about seeing this sword being offered, but there were things nagging at me and this is just an attempt to identify them.

[Chad Arnow]

I just had the final prototype in my hands for a future review. Looking at pics of the original and the repro, the length of the unsharpened back edge is darn close.

The proportion of total length to unsharpened back edge by my calculations (measuring straight-on photos of both):

Original: 2.542857143 (total blade length is ~2.5 times as long as the unsharpened back edge)
Repro: 2.71875(total blade length is ~2.7 times as long as the unsharpened back edge)

[Henrik Zoltan Toth]

Nick,


are those sabres(in the first pict.) from the Carpathian basin, or from f.e. Bolsiye Tigan, or Bolsiye Tarhan (or Sterlitamak)?

I want to post some other pics about pre 11. century hungarian sabres and swords with sabre-hilts (and about 15-18. Cent. hungarian sabres and pallos) into an other topic as soon as I have the time.

Zoltán