Small Buckler -- myArmoury.com

Richard Wells · Posted: Sat 21 Jul, 2007 6:15 pm Post subject: Small Buckler

I am interested in the CAS Iberia / Hanwei small Buckler. there is an example featured in Bill Grandy's collection page on this site. Here Bill describes it as a "Hand-cup Buckler".
It is only 7 inches in diameter and is perhaps best described as a boss with a rim !

Has anyone any historical references to small bucklers like this ? and does anyone know of a surviving example ?

Richard

Hugo Voisine · Posted: Sun 22 Jul, 2007 7:31 am Post subject:

If you look carefully in this page (sword and buckler article from the Arma) you can see a few examples of bucklers of very small diameter :

http://www.thearma.org/essays/SwordandBucklerP2.htm

Craig Peters · Posted: Sun 22 Jul, 2007 9:12 am Post subject:

I think the last couple of images are examples of bucklers that were merely illustrated a bit undersize by the artist, rather than being actual "small bucklers". This is particularly true in my opinion for the final image.

Hugo Voisine · Posted: Sun 22 Jul, 2007 9:38 am Post subject:

You are more than probably right. However the first two images shows clearly bucklers that are not much wider than a boss with a handle. Wink

What's interesting in my opinion is the similarity of the method of suspension on the first two. I wonder if the buckler was suspended on a hook attached to the scabbard or the belt or something like that...

Jean Thibodeau · Posted: Sun 22 Jul, 2007 10:02 am Post subject:

Hisham Gaballa · Posted: Sun 22 Jul, 2007 10:03 am Post subject:

Jean Thibodeau · Posted: Sun 22 Jul, 2007 10:11 am Post subject:

Hugo Voisine · Posted: Sun 22 Jul, 2007 10:27 am Post subject:

Martin Wilkinson · Posted: Sun 22 Jul, 2007 10:36 am Post subject:

Richard Wells · Posted: Sun 22 Jul, 2007 1:46 pm Post subject: Small Buckler

Thanks for the pics Hugo. The first two certainly look to be pretty small.I'm sure they were intended to be drawn as such

and it does look as if the common attachment method is looped over the sword. A leather loop would work well.

I am not a martial arts expert. How were they used ? It seems to me they would require considerable skill and accuracy

not to mention confidence. The small buckler is more solid than an armoured fist but how much more ?

The surviving bucklers I've seen are all larger and mostly are steel. Leather and wood examples certainly havn't survived

as well though there are some. A buckler of the size we are talking about would only conceivably work if it was steel, yet I

know of no examples. Is it possible that some surviving bosses have been wrongly identified and were in fact complete

bucklers. If not then I can only surmise these small bucklers were pretty uncommon.

Richard

Norman McCormick · Posted: Sun 22 Jul, 2007 1:54 pm Post subject:

Hi there,
I don't know about European bucklers but I have in my collection an antique, 18th/19th cent, steel/iron example from India called a Madu. This particular example has a diameter of 8 inches, 25 inches including the antelope horns. As you can see it also has a spike protruding from the centre for about 2 1/2 inches which I think is unusual so it is certainly an offensive as well as a defensive weapon. Similar items formed using the horns only were carried by Holy men in India as they were forbidden to carry regular weapons. Sometimes the ends of the horns were tipped with brass or steel spikes. I have attached a few photos to give you a better idea of its construction.
Regards,
Norman.

Richard Wells · Posted: Sun 22 Jul, 2007 2:12 pm Post subject: Small Buckler

Hi Norman,

That's an impressive weapon, but the horns on each side would suggest a totally different technique to the small

European buckler. I have seen small Indo - Persian bucklers 7 or 8 inches in diameter so the techniques of use could be

similar. Perhaps the small buckler was more offensive than defensive i.e. could be used for punching ?

We need some help from you sword fighters. How would you use a small buckler.

Richard

Norman McCormick · Posted: Sun 22 Jul, 2007 3:56 pm Post subject:

Hi Richard,
Going on the premise that attack is the best form of defense it would be probable, even desirable, that any equipment carried by a soldier/fighter, if possible, would be utilised as appropriate i.e.in this case to punch or parry. Even if an item was designed for a particular purpose any self respecting soldier regardless of time frame would I'm sure find unlimited uses for items of equipment especially if it gave him an edge in combat or comfort. India in the 18th century was still to all intents stuck in the medieval period as regards personal weaponry e.g. swords, spears, bows, maille armour etc. long after Europeans had taken to the gun so maybe Madus with their spiked bosses and sharpened horns are just a logical progression that the European buckler didn't have time to achieve or for that matter need to achieve as plate armour would probably have negated any advantage that the pointy bits gave as it negated to a degree swords and daggers in favour of warhammers and poleaxes. Sikhs I believe, still, as part of their martial arts spar with buckler sized dahls and tulwars therefore maybe, given the idea that there are limited ways to optimise the use of particular equipment, there may be an insight into the way they were used in the past. This is all conjecture of course but maybe an interesting possibility.
Regards,
Norman.

Richard Wells · Posted: Sun 22 Jul, 2007 4:32 pm Post subject: Small Buckler

Hi Norman,
I think you are right, The 'small' buckler allows a punch or whatever as well as the ability to block or deflect a blow. It is definately conjecture on my part as I do not practise any martial art with swords. For an offensive move the buckler works better if it is smaller - it concentrates any force or blow. I hasten to add thats my theory.
In a defensive mode it does seem small and I wonder if some sort of sword catching hook would have been common ,perhaps on the edge. In the middle would have presumably got in the way of a punch. Similarly a spike at first sounds a good idea for the punching but a 2 or 3 inch spike may have been more trouble than it was worth - you don't want it to stay stck or jammed in something or somebody. Also I suppose military or civilian use is pertinant.
It would really help to see an original as we are theorising here.
If I was cynical I would suggest they were not at all common and size in a medieval illumination is not necessarily accurate.
Cheers
Richard

Hugo Voisine · Posted: Sun 22 Jul, 2007 6:35 pm Post subject:

I think the main advantage of a small buckler would be the easiness of transportation. Apart from that... well, I would definitely prefer a larger one, more practical in the bind, and for striking your enemy at the throat with the rim of the buckler, while binding with the sword. Of course this is only my personal opinion. Wink

Alberto Dainese · Posted: Sun 22 Jul, 2007 11:17 pm Post subject:

Merv Cannon · Posted: Mon 23 Jul, 2007 1:18 am Post subject: Re: Small Buckler

Greg Coffman · Posted: Mon 23 Jul, 2007 2:52 pm Post subject:

I prefer a small buckler. My sparring buckler is 8 inches and made out of a stove-top drip pan Wink

. It is essentially just a boss with a metal rim. I find it to be light which makes it fast. It doesn't passively cover as large of an area as larger bucklers with a wood rim such as depicted in I.33. However, I have been taught to use the buckler by extending by arm out all of the way. See, the buckler does not just cover the area behind it, it creates a cone of coverage and the farther out you hold it, the larger the cone is. But then again, with a buckler you move it to the opponents blade. A sword edge isn't very wide so 7-8 inches is pretty sufficient.

Just because it is smaller doesn't mean the force is more concentrated when punching or anything. You are either punching with the boss or punching with the edge and neither vary enough by size if the buckler is that round classic shape. F=MA. If you double the mass then you double the force. So a heavier buckler hits harder than a lighter one, all other things constant. But if you keep it light so you can punch twice as fast then you quadruple the force. This isn't perfect but I mean to show that a smaller buckler works just fine.

Richard Wells · Posted: Mon 23 Jul, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject:

Greg,
Good points about punching - now you explain, it is clear a boss regardless of rim size does the work - also the cone theory.
Thanks.
I think Merv has a interesting point about bosses being recycled and used as a small buckler.
My query was around the perception of an artifact today. Would we tend to describe an artifact as a boss,just because it was more common or likely, rather than describe it as a small buckler.
It does seem that no one knows of an actual surviving example. How much does that weaken the case for them. I recall having seen references to small bucklers but I think they were flat or had small bosses.

Are there any other weapons or armour types that exist only in pictures or descriptions without a surviving example. Thats probably a new thread !

Richard

Merv Cannon · Posted: Mon 23 Jul, 2007 8:27 pm Post subject: Small Bucklers.

Thought I'd add a few shots of original bucklers...........these all clearly show the use, or perhaps re-use , of a traditional Viking / Norman shield boss. Some have decorative flanges added, some also added spikes too. We already know that they cut the tops off kite shields in early medieval times. Bucklers probably developed also for the use of the traveler and pilgrims who didnt want to drag soething big around with them.
So whether they were small or bigger, many seemed to have at the center, the standard round shield boss that we all know.........I think its highly likely that these were re-cycled from earlier use. It would be very hard to tell because they would have used the same rivet holes too, I assume.
Cheers