[Jean Thibodeau]

I purchased an early version of Albion's Urnfield sword a couple of years ago and I am curious about what kind of bronze it is made of and how it compares to the cutting potential of the original period swords when new.

As received it was unsharpened with a fairly thick edge that I sharpened to a "Paper" cutting edge with no great difficulty.
The picture that one now sees on the Albion site seems to be more refined than the early model that I received with what appears to be a charpened edge.( This model is presently discontinued.)

From what I have read it is possible to get a razor edge on a bronze sword, but I think that the edge must be first be work hardened. I only filed down the edge on my sword out of fear of dammaging it not knowing how much hammering was needed and to avoid accidentally destroying it. (My goal was mostly cosmetic and not for any serious cutting.)

I am just curious about the cutting potential of bronze versus steel. Just how hard is worked hardened bronze compared to it"s unhardened state and to steel weapons.

If Albion produces a Next Generation line of bronze weapons, is the issue of edge hardening something to consider.

I could be wrong, but I think that the intent in producing this early version was not to produce a "functionning" bronze age weapon. ( No criticism implied here, just curious and I hope to learn more about these very early weapons.)

[Peter Johnsson]

Bronze weaponry is very interesting to me.
Before including bronze weapons in the next generation line there are a few issues to decide about.
If tin bronze is used (the most authentic material) cold working would be needed to bring the blade up to fully functional hardness and resilience. Cold hammering a bronze blade (reducing thickness to 25% of original thickness in the edge) is laborious and time consuming and would bring the price above that of a similar blade in hardened steeel. I do not think the interest in bronze blades is so high that this level of work and price will be welcomed.
Another possibility would be to offer semifinished tin bronze blades with roughly finished hilt components as home projects for enthusiasts, sold as kits. It is a way to go as authentic as possible with modern materials, but would still limit the interest, I guess.
Finished tin bronze weapons without the coldworking could be offered as show peices for those who would like to buy a completed weapon, but then one would have to be aware that the sword/axe/spear does not have the functional quality of the originals.
Last alternative is casting them in a contemporary bronze alloy that in itself has a higher hardness and resiliency. That would open up the possibility to cast them closer to shape, including more details in the originals to be carried through and get very close to final dimensions already in the casting.

I have been conducting a few experiments with bronze swords in my own smithy. Bronze is a fascinating material and the blades of the bronze age are impressive in their beauty and design. Cold working tin bronze brings it up to something that can be described as a spring temper. It will take a set earlier than would steel and it will also break before steel does. Despite these shortcomings it is absolutly possible to make very funcitonal weapons of this material. (after all, this was done during two millennia) it is just a question of knowing how to properly use the weapon/tool anbd designing the weapon with the characteristics of the material in mind (how to do this we can learn from the originals).
Iron is softer than work hardened bronze. Work hardened bronze is harder than work hardened plain iron. Phosphorous iron can be cold worked to a higher hardness than bronze, but other than that you need to make use of iron with a carbon content (= steel) and submit it to a heat treatment (=quenching and tempering) to reach a higher hardenss.
A benefit with early iron weapons was that they were made from a material that was readily available almost everywhere and that they bent before they broke. Bronze is a material that relies on international trade routes and can thus be controlled by an elite. That is the benefit and setback with this technology. It was a solution that lasted for many centuries and resulted in some of the most beautiful objects that has been made by mankind.

I will continue with making experiments in bronze and collecting data on bronze age weaponry. When there is a good solution to the alloy and casting questions, interesting possibilities opens up for bronze age weapons to be included in the line of the next generation of Albion.

[Russ Ellis]

I'm guessing that the way to go would to use the modern alloy. Let's face it the steel that is being used in the next gen swords now isn't the steel that was used anciently and I haven't heard anyone (okay maybe one or two) complaining about it. I know it's hard to strike that balance between historical accuracy and modern price points.

[Jean Thibodeau]

Peter,

Thank you for a very informative reply, there is very little information on the using qualities of bronze weapons in even the best reference books that I have read: The emphasis Is mostly on the "Art History" or archiological importance of these artifacs.
I have learned more interesting things in your reply than in many years of casual reading. (I do not consider myself to be a serious researcher.)

I agree that from a commercial perspective there might not be sufficient interest to justify the expense of research.
The various options you mentionned all seem interesting given different objectives, expectations and cost.

If one want a display piece reflecting the beauty and grace of an ancient bronze sword the cutting qualities are not essential.

A do it yourself but not too expensive version could be a satisfying learning experience: One would need precise instructions as to how to work harden the bronze. I would suggest that practice pieces of bronze should be include with the sword on which to learn the technique(s).(A small bronze knife project might be a place to start before trying to do this on a 20" sword!.) ( Make a bronze razor kit maybe?) ( Hummmmm this might even be an Interesting marketing idea available to forum members or for Albion to it's customers?)

The maximum effort "Real" bronze sword with all the cutting qualities of a "As New Original" using only time appropriate materials would only work as an expensive custom piece.

Using a modern bronze not needing work hardening seem to me the way to go if one wants an affordable sword with which to do cutting trials.

An interesting option, but not historically relevant , would be to try to produce the best possible cuttlery bronze and produce a Modern line of knives or swords. ( How about a bronze folding knife!!! just an idea?)

[Robert Zamoida]

Hey Peter,
In the original swords, was there any evidence of heat treatment?
Also, what was the general sequence of events involved in the making of bronze weapons; from what I gather, the "blank", which included the hilt, was first cast in a mold, and then worked with a hammer (with or without heat?) to achieve the final shape and to harden the metal, and then the organic components of the hilt were attached and the sword sharperned. Am I close?
Take for instance, the original on which the Albion Mark Odysseus is based; were the ridges on the blade a result of hammering, or were they included in the original casting?
If heat treatiing was used, is there any possiblilty that the smiths of old used some type of "differential" treatment; if I remember right, and please correct me if I'm wrong, when annealing or hardening bronze and other copper alloys you do the opposite of steel; to harden, heat and allow to cool slowly and to anneal heat and then quench. Could they have used some method, say similar to clay coating, to achieve a differential heat treatment?
Personally, for any Next Gen bronze swords I would like to see modern alloys with the same hardness, or better, than the original bronze used, with composite hilts like the reconstructions in Peter Connoly's The Ancient Greece of Odysseus.

[Peter Johnsson]

I am still very much in a learning phase regarding brnze weaponry.

Molds for casting blades were made from stone or clay. I have seen a four part mold of bronze in Münich that was made to cast hollow sword hilts. (That is a pretty advanced application of the technique!)
Clay molds made use of the lost wax method: an original was encased in slurry/clay mix. Then the wax was burned out leaving a hollow with an exact imprint to be filled by molten bronze.

Stone molds were made in two parts and seems to have had a lower degree of detail. At least those I´ve seen. This means more coldworking was invested to bring out details on the blades cast in two part stone molds.

Bronze tools and weapons could be worked after casting. When more plastic deformation was needed bronze could perhaps be carefully forged while hot, or at least thoroughyl annealed between passes of coldworking. Heating to dull red glow makes bronze soft and tension free. Hot forging bronze is very difficult. It takes very tight control of temperature or the material will crumble or crack. I think the most probable method would have been cold working with annealing when hardness increased to much for the material to deform properly.
To acheive an edge with practical hardness the bronze needs to be compressed to 50%- 25% or less of original thickness. It is just the outer portion of the edge that is compressed to such a degree. Bronze hardened like this will get a certain degree of spring temper.
I do not think the spine of the blade was much coldworked. Perhaps to some degree? Narrow furrows could have been traced with chisels. This would have compressed the material somewhat as well. Perhaps this had an effect on the resiliency of the spine? Just specualtion...

The surface of the blade could be worked by scraping. This method can define narrow ridges and furrows. I have seen a very well preserved Etruscan antennae sword that still showed very clear traces of the scraping tool.
Other pristine blades show a surface that is , or would have been, mirror brigh, or at least a very fine satin finish. I guess a surface like this could be acheived with pumice stone or some other naturally occuring emery compound.

The edges of the swords are generally very nicely defined and *thin*. It is as thin as aon any good quality skinning or butchers knife. Not an edge you would expect to be good at chopping through bone: just guessing from seeing originals close. The construction of the blades, their profile and cross section also suggest another method of cutting. Such edges would be devastating in slicing cuts: Sweeping cuts that severed major muscles from the bones or were aimed at the softer parts of the body. Thrusting would be like a hot knife through butter. (Unless there was protection of some kind: bronse breast plates survive. we should expect there were similar cuirasses of leather...)
The spine of these swords will bend in the plane of the edge when whacked into a hard target (like the wooden stump that my anvil rests on) Even if it is possible to sink the blade down beyond the midrib (if cutting along the grin of the wooden stump) the sword will not be happy with such abuse...You see a clear sabering after a few hard blows. It makes good sense the swords would not have been intended for such chopping/cleaving attacks primarily. This kind of damage is sometimes evident in originals however.

Examination of blades sacrificed in british waters show that the swords were sometimes intentionally annealed before thrown into the water: thus the hardness of the edges was destroyed. This is a very interesting detail that show the awareness of the effect of heat on the "temper" of the blades. It also tells us something of what kind of variation of the heat treatment we might encounter in the examination of early iron age swords made of steely iron: even if they do not show traces of heat treatment today, they might have had a usable temper before being sacrificed or placed in a tomb. We cannot know this for certain.

To learn more it would be interesting to make more tests with realistic replicas.
Perhaps it is possible to inspire a wider interest i the weaponry of the earliest ages of the sword?

[Nathan Robinson]

Peter-

You never cease to amaze me not only with the depth of your knowledge on a particular subject, but the diversity of areas of knowledge that you have on all aspects of the study of authentic arms. Though you no doubt have specific interests, you don't seem to let that keep you from studying a wide range of subjects. I'm very glad to read these posts from you.

[Mark Moore]

Earlier was posted the notion to have Albion release 'kit-swords'......HMMMMMMM....Sell a rough blade...guard...pommel...Let the buyer finish as he or she chooses....add whatever for a grip...Damn. This could veeeery interesting. ....................MM.

[Brock H]

I'm another one who would be very interested in any bronze swords, especially leaf blades. I think the affordable option of modern alloys duplicating the hardness of the originals is the best way to go. However, it might be interesting to determine what the cost of a more exact duplicate using original alloy and work hardened would cost as a custom option.