[Gianfranco Bongioanni]

A very good sword, amazing!

Gianfranco

[Alex Oster]

Congrats,

Its definitely not my style, but I have to chime in that that scabbard is awesome! Its a wonderful fit and finish for that sword. However, it dosent really match the wood grip (imho) . Its not my era/style/realm of study, so it may be spot on historically. However from my outsiders view, it doesn't fit my eyes. Still wonderful metalworking all around! I'm sure it will be well cared for!

So whats next? Are you filling out a new kit? We still need to see some mounted pics of your norman kit!

[Hugh Fuller]

Alex, believe me when I say that the hilt and the scabbard do fit what we know from the archaeology. Patrick Barta does supremely accurate work.

[Steve Grisetti]

Whoa! I just woke up and saw that Patrick Kelly received his new Barta recreation. It is gorgeous, Patrick! Well done!

[Shane Allee]

[Hugh Fuller]

As I have said in an earlier post, this isnot my area of specialty, but I did research that sword as best I could with the references that I had and it seemed to me that it fit in rather well. That is why I posted as I did. Please educate me and show me where I am wrong.

[Shane Allee]

My question for you Hugh would be were in your research have you found any of the authors who write about this period talking about waisted blades outside of the anthropoid daggers? I have yet to find any discussion of these even from people who have used the pictures and illustration of blades that presently look like this in their research. In the archaeologist descriptions they will talk about the blades staying parallel, tapering evenly, slightly, more pronounced in the last part of the blade, or etc. None seem to talk about waisting, curving in, or flaring out. After discussions of things like the taper they will talk about current state, weathering, and corrosion. The best that I can tell these authors look at these the same way that myself and others do, as weathered blades. So far I have yet to see an example that doesn't look like weathering to me. There are plenty of example of scabbards weathering in the middle because the ends usually have added re-enforcement. These blades that in their current start are waisted span the entire period and surely would have been something that would have been addressed as a blade type or trend that stands out. So if there are any example that are truly made that way then they have to fall into the realm of the extremely rare.

The use of bronze on the continent is also vary rare for use on weapons outside of its use anthropoid daggers and the odd pommel sphere, bronze guard plates are pretty rare on the continent though. Can't really say that I'm aware of any mixed metal scabbards. The design on the scabbard is based on a British example.

Shane

[Hugh Fuller]

[David McElrea]

Hi Hugh,

I'm not Shane, but...

The scabbard is a blend of continental and Irish styles... beautiful, but unusual. A few points:

1) Irish swords (and ergo scabbards) are shorter than continental ones. They ranged anywhere from dagger(ish) proportions to gladius proportions for the most part-- one longer sword has been found on an island off the Irish Coast, but that seems to be from a British (i.e. non-Irish) burial. The dimensions of this Patrick's sword are those of a continental sword, not an Irish one.

2) There is a noticeably distinct feel between continental La Tene and Insular La Tene motifs. Both may be classified as La Tene, but there are differences. There are also differences within the Insular forms, one of which forms is the Irish.

The sword in question is fairly distinctly continental (to my eyes anyway, although it could be British-- Shane would be a better judge of that than I), yet the scabbard decoration is distinctly not continental. The motifs used by Barta are reminiscent of the Lisnacrogher scabbards found in Co. Antrim, N. Ireland, incidentally.

I feel badly saying anything that seems negative-- it is a gorgeous weapon. I'm also sure one could creatively explain how we would see these two cultures coming together --a Gaul in Ireland, maybe? An Irishman in Gaul? Nonetheless these are some of the things that stood out to me (apart from the leafy-shape to the blade).

Also seeking to walk in the light,

David[/i]

[Shane Allee]

Right, so you were not talking about the blade... it really needed to be said anyway though.

Like I said before I wasn't exactly comfortable being in this thread to begin with, but I really didn't want my stuff brought into this as well. It is, so I'll address that.

So I am under the assumption that this is made to be a Continental La Tene II based on the concept drawing label. Like David mentioned, different art styles from different places. I'd have to check the dates, but possibly different times as well.

If you look at the use of metal on sword fittings on the Continent vs Britain you will see they are almost opposite each other. In the British stuff the bronze is just more commonly used on swords and scabbards. There are example on the Continent, but they are rare.

I avoided saying too much about the hilts because I didn't want to come off as ranting, but I will give you my thoughts though. If you ask me if this hilt or Patrick's hilts in general work for Eastern La Tene II, I would say sure. What I don't think is that they work all of the La Tene. The whole idea that we just simply don't know what the hilts from this period look like is an excuse that might have worked ok ten years ago, but not so much today. It is a crutch to either do whatever a person wants or to stick with one or two things. You mention that the hilt on my La Tene III that I recently finished looked similar to this one. Ok, to some all of the lobed La Tene stuff looks the same. Others can look at the two and see a clear Eastern influence, which it has because of the bas-relief that he uses, that isn't present in the hilt form on mine. For example if we were to look at the two hilts that Nathan Bell and myself are currently work on. Some people might see them as being almost the same with just a few minor differences. The truth is that he is doing what would be typical of a Western style La Tene I while I'm doing what would more commonly be round in Northern Italy. One of us could have done one that would have clearly been from the Carpathian basin region. These are based on sections of hilts and fragments from this period that show us what these would have looked like. We have then applied the regional trends that we know to give us a sword that we can then say would for certain be in keeping with the typical sword from that place and time. At this time there is enough research to track the the development of some of the unique hilt features through the period. We couldn't do this if we only knew what one percent of these looked like.

Guess that I best go get some wisdom teeth pulled now.

Shane

[Hugh Fuller]

Thanks for the information. I stand corrected on this and will go back to commenting on the Migration Era and Roman swords with which I am familiar.