[Bram Verbeek]

I was making a few waster shields and was wondering what the right amount of curvature would be for a norman teardrop shield of 1,5 feet width (or 45cm for us metrics).

For a future project, what would be the amount of curvature for a roman cavalry shield be?I am targetting the later elongated hexagonal shields.

Thanks in advance. Any type of unit would be fine, I will apply the usual math to make it work for me...

[Elling Polden]

45 cm seems a bit narrow for a kite; Ours are usually 60cm wide, and from 90 to 110 cm tall.
The byzantine teardrops where standardized at 2x3 feet (60x90 cm)

As for curvature, as much as you can get.
Like tank armour, curvature helps protect against penetration. It also means that you can effectively get the shield closer to your body, and thus be less vulnerable to thrusts from the side.
The tradeoff is lessened edge control, as the curvature forces you to place the handstraps towards the relatively flat center of the shield.
(front handstrap closer to the edge=more edge controll)

What method are you using to make the shield? bent plywood or boards?

[Robin Smith]

It really depends on period. There is quite a bit of evidence pointing to the kite shield of the 11th C. being significantly less curved (or even flat) than the kite of the 12th. I'm gonna have to poke around for the cite, but I've read that soldiers in the 11th C. used their kite shield as a table for dining on while in the field, a trick that would be difficult with the deep curve that was to develop in the later kite.

[Stephen Hand]

You have two choices on curvature, depending on period. Up to the 12th century kite shields are shown in art with little if any curvature (I know of no surviving examples and it's impossible to see whether the shields were flat or gently curved - I would suggest the latter but can't be 100% sure). In the 12th century shield became deeply curved and fit snugly around the body.

The two types of kite shield are shown being used in fundamentally different ways, though obeying the same martial principles. The earlier style is shown being held out from the body - edge towards the opponent (in single combat - melee is different) which serves to close the line of attack and protect the arm in attack. The later style is held close to the body and is great protection requiring only minimal body movement to protect anywhere. The downside of deeply curved shields is that it's almost impossible to cover the arm in attack when using one. Hence, right after deeply curved kite shields appeared, mail extended to cover the entire sword arm.

I cover shield use in two papers which appear in the volumes Spada and Spada II. the issue of curvature is covered in detail in Spada II.

Cheers
Stephen

[Robin Smith]

Let me add, my 11th C. kite (on my avatar) is 58cmX106cm with about a 5cm curve.

[Bram Verbeek]

Thank you, I see that I did not put in an exact era. I was thinking about an 11th century teardrop. the shield in your avatar does look very nice, and I will try to make something alike.
I am using bent plywood for starters, see how it works for me and then make it in boards. I am curving a couple of 7mm 2m30x1m10 plates using weighted metal tubes, the exact amount of curvature can still be varied, but on the breadth of 1,10, I now have a curve of about 7,5 cm. It will amount to 5cm curve after it bends back. that is, on 1,1 m, on 60 cm it will be about 3cm. I will make 4 shields out of the plates, cut the first, see how it works, cut a better one, see how that works and hope I am satisfied before the plywood runs out. 45 cm does seem a little slim, I have been practicing with such a shield and it worked for me, but it is not contemporary.

[Matthew Amt]

Roman cavalry shields (1st to 2nd century AD) are generally thought to be flat! There is a theory that the well-known oval auxiliary shields were slightly dished rather than flat (or that some were flat and some were dished), but I'm not sure if that extends to the hexagonal types or not.

Vale,

Matthew

[Greg Coffman]

How do you make a curved shield? How do you bend the plywood and get it to keep the shape?

[Robin Smith]

Here is a friends method.
http://community.webshots.com/album/179993561rMwokb
(All credit for the photo essay belongs to Scott Gelpi)
I do the same, though I curve it around a tree. You can also use a shield press. You use two peices of 1/4" ply, and the glue once it dries, holds the curve.
I have yet to try a planked kite.

[Elling Polden]

You can also make curve using just the straps, but it won't trun out prefectly even. However, this is generally not a problem.

We generally use 2x4mm ply, with two layers of cloth facing. This makes for a lighter shield, that can still take a fair amount of beating.
One thing to pay attention to is that ply has one flexible and one inflexible direction... Make sure you know which is which defore you cut out the pieces, or you might end up with a plate that won't bend propperly.

[Bram Verbeek]

I have used weights to achieve the same, 4 long iron tubes, 2 under the boards and two on top of them to distribute the weight more evenly. and then load it up with stones until a nice curve appears. you will need to reposition the upper tubes every once in a while to get an even curve, and it is not a good thing if your back gives way when the maximum load is on the boards and you really need to get it off (I am changing the roof tiles and isolation here, that is rather heavy on your back, but gives you a much more secure footing)

[Bill Tsafa]

[Stephen Hand]

Dear Vassilis,

The historical basis for what I do is in the two papers I mentioned, the first in Spada and the second in Spada II. All of the surviving manuals that deal with large shields deal with flat or gently curved shields. This is dealt with in depth in Spada. One of the things I discuss in the second paper in Spada II is how medieval and ancient iconography shows deeply curved shields being used quite differently. They are held close to the body, curving around it in fact. This is true of Roman legionaries to 12th century knights. Now there is absolutely no historical evidence that I know of stating how to use deeply curved shields, apart from the actual guard. However, if I pick one up, stand in the guard that artists all show them using and use the same principles shown in the 15th and 16th century manuals that discuss shields I get a very effective style that requires practically no shield movement.

Flat or gently curved shields are also moved minimally in combat as moving a heavy object like a shield creates a huge tempo for your opponent to use. They are not used flat against the body in single combat though. Against the historical style shown in the manuals, holding a flat shield with the face towards your opponent is suicidal. I do believe that the SCA bans a lot of the actions that would make this so in real combat.

If you want to learn more, you should get copies of Spada and Spada II.

Cheers
Stephen

[Bill Tsafa]

Thank you very much for your response.

Just as a side note the only shield movements that the SCA bans is shield bashing. You are allowed to do shield-hooks and current rules even allow for pressing up against someone with the shield and manipulating them. You just can't bash them.

I generally hold the shield out against like-handed fighters but flat against off-handed fighters as my whole sword-side would otherwise be open.

[Chase S-R]

''but I've read that soldiers in the 11th C. used their kite shield as a table for dining on while in the field, a trick that would be difficult with the deep curve that was to develop in the later kite.''

yes they did use their sheilds as tabels in the 11th cent. in the bayeux tapestry they are shown eating off them in the embroidery they look curved at times and flat at others this theory that they had both can also bbe applied to the chainmail v. rings stitched to leather deate. most likely there werevariations just like now if you were trying to replicate blue jeans and were wondering what shade there was. in histry there were all sorts of ariations so flat slightly curved and highly curved could allbe accurate the question would be which was most common. also it depens ho u are making you sheild is it plankes of lime wood like earlier viking sheils this wood would be most accurate for 1066 but harder to curve so most likely flat.