[Shae Bishop]

I am wondering if anyone knows of any fencing manuals from the period 1630-50 or slightly before from England or anywhere else in western Europe. What I really want to get at is how were swords used during the English Civil War and later 30 Years War. I am interested both in the use of rapiers and broadswords (including so-called cut-and-thrust swords). Was rapier fencing at this point still taught based on the works of the 16th century Italian masters? I know that to a large extent the same priciples apply especially for weapons like the swept-hilt rapier which had been in use with minor variations since the mid 16th century and was at the end of it's heyday in the period in question, but what of English cup-hilts and the newer transitional rapiers of the period. Regarding broader-bladed swords, I know that many were used as cavalry weapons primarily, but what of their use on foot. Were swords such as mortuary hilts and other half-baskets ever used for dueling, I would imagine they were since many of the musketeer and pikemam's swords used as secondary weapons were of a similar form and used on foot, and if so how were they used? Were the methods of George Silver still prevalant in England for the use of basket-hilts and other cut-and-thrust swords? Finally, how much (if at all) would swordsmanship vary from England to continental Europe where the 30 Years War was being fought?

I know that this is a lot of questions to throw out there and some of them may not have an easy answer. I have tried to be as specific as possible to make answering easier. I know that there are some 17th century fanatics on this board so I thought I could try to draw on some of their knowledge.

Thank you very much,

Shae

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

Steven Reich has made a nice illustration of a timeline of fencing manuals in Italy and elsewhere, published on the Order of Seven Hearts' website (the organisation founded by Tom Leoni):
http://salvatorfabris.com/Timeline.shtml

But the use in battle vs. duel is a difficult subject... As is the question of how widespread was a given style at one time. From what I've seen in manuals, it seems that the use of the rapier remained fairly consistent throughout the 17th century, i.e. it relies on the same principles. For more military types, cut & thrust weapons, I really don't know...

Hope this helps

[Martin Wilkinson]

The Pallas Armata manual, was published in 1639.

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/pallas.htm

Hope this helps.

With regards to what was used, and how, I really can't say with any certainty, i'm currently looking into the swords used during the English Civil War, and can't really say alot about how they were used.

I just don't know if regular soldiers recieved any training in sword fighting. I do, however, know what they used swords for. Chopping wood.

Unfortunately i don't know what swords were issued to infantry men, whilst records exist of their cost, exact details, such as hilt and blade style don't exist as far as i can tell.

[Dietrich Dellinger]

I'd check around the reenactment societies for the military use of the sword. I know there are surviving drill manuals from the period, but I don't know if they cover the use of the sword or not.

http://www.thesealedknot.org.uk/

http://www.ecwsa.org/

[Martin Wilkinson]

[Stephen Hand]

The closest in time period is Pallas Armata from 1639. A complete transcription in the original English is at

http://www.stoccata.org/stoccata.nsf/Pages/Manuals

The rapier fencing system is basically Italian, though Chris Vivo, who is translating the extant French rapier sources, and I feel that it may be Italian coming via France (though there's a fair bit of supposition in that). The sword system is like a hybrid between Bolognese sword and English backsword as exemplified at this period by Swetnam (whose 1617 work can be found at that same page). Swetnam's rapier system is home grown English and is rather interesting as it seems to be heavily geared towards defending yourself from unschooled or poorly schooled fencers.

I think Silver was becoming out of date by the time he wrote, let alone by the Civil War 40 years later. The system may have survived in pockets and certainly Scottish swordsmanship as exemplified by things like the Penicuick Sketches appears to have remained more Silver like than English swordsmanship.

I own facsimiles of about twenty 16th and 17th century drill manuals and none of them has a section on sword use.

Cheers
Stephen

[Lafayette C Curtis]

It might also be worth your while to look up some information about the Marxbruder/Marx Brothers--they were still one of the foremost swordsmanship authorities on the Continent during the timeframe you have in mind.

[Shae Bishop]

Thank you all for your responses and the links. I was not familiar with the Pallas Armata.
I find it interesting that there don't seem to be sword sections in 17th century drill manuals. I assume that includes sword use by cuirassiers and harquebusiers. Even if the sword was merely a secondary weapon, I'm a bit surprised that there aren't even brief sections on them in drill manuals. Do any period texts mention sword training or practice in miliatary camps?

Thanks,
Shae

[Felix Wang]

I think the key to the absence of swords from the drill manuals lies in the fact that swords were not formation weapons.

Muskets were fired (mostly) in volleys, and loaded and discharged on command. Pikes were mass weapons, and had to be handled in a coordinated, group fashion.

The effective use of a sword is not dependent on what the swordsman on your right or left is doing, as long as your flank is covered and your swords don't foul each other. Massed coordinated drill isn't needed. I suspect later sword drill manuals exist because it became necessary to teach large numbers of men the basics of sword handling. I don't know exactly how men of the ECW period picked up the basics of sword usage - this question goes back into early medieval times. We do know from Vegetius the Romans had some notions of basic sword training for recruits, but after that, the issue becomes obscure.

[Daniel Staberg]

[Lafayette C Curtis]

Weren't the Swedes fond of charging with the sword as well? I may be mixing them up with later (early 18th C.) Swedes, though.

[Daniel Staberg]

[William Goodwin]

Most info. on sword useage (manual / drill wise) during this time period has already been covered. Just wanted to
re-enforce the statement that (in English military anyway) most drilling / training was concentrated on the use of pike and musket. The sword was looked at by some as a last resort / close combat weapon. Only in the cavalry would the sword have had any formal training to any extent during the ECW and the Thirty Years wars.

Cheers,

Bill

[Stephen Hand]

[Lafayette C Curtis]

Well, I was asking about the Swedish infantry--which means Daniel's answer is precisely what I'm looking for. heck, I even forgot many of these "Swedes" were Scots and Englishmen!

Now that I think of it, isn't it highly probable that the shift to firefight-based tactics was also caused by the Swedes' increasing reliance on German mercenaries in the later years of the Thirty Years' War?

[Martin Wilkinson]

[Hugh Fuller]

I believe that it was General George Monck who was quite negaitve bout issuing rapiers to the average soldier, saying that he will use it mostly for cutting wood, and recommending "a good stiff tuck."

[Stephen Hand]

[David Evans]

I once asked the Royal Armouries for an idea of the usual infantry hanger or sword issued during the 1640's. After some disscussion their choice was a simple basket hilt, something in the style of A5.932 as attached.

Having read "The Pinder of Wakefield" published in 1632and Thomas Deloney's " The Gentle Craft" from about 1597 I'd argue that a tradtion of backsword play was alive and well in English culture into the mid 17th century and beyond. This style of fighting would have carried over into the armies of the civil war. Indeed, the accounts of brawls in Oxford where injuries of cut fingers and slashes were reported may well reflect the style of fight competions pre war!

[Lafayette C Curtis]