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John Gage
Industry Professional
Location: New Glarus, WI Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 154
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 Posted: Wed 24 Mar, 2004 5:04 am Post subject: Unknown age of a Japanese Katana |
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I was hoping someone could help me possibly identify the age of a Japanese Katana given to me by my grandfather. He was a Corsair mechanic in the south Pacific during WW2 and obtained the sword in while on leave in China. I have been told from a local collector that the blade could be old, he offered me $500 for it, of course i told him nicely to piss off. I am more familiar with Western swords although i have done some research on the blade without any definative results. The tang is unsigned and fairly rusty and pitted. There is also a peice of cheesecloth with japanese writing on the scabbard. The pics are a bit blurred but its the best i can do at the moment. Here are some measurements that i have taken.
blade length 27.25"
tang length 7.25"
blade width
from hilt 1.062" - .690" to tip
blade thickness
from hilt .220 - .160 to tip
Thanx,
John Gage
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Robert Zamoida
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| Posted: Wed 24 Mar, 2004 6:22 am Post subject: |
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Hi John,
Although I am a student of Japanese swordsmanship, and have had a love of Japanese swords for almost 15 years now, I am by no means an expert. The best people on this forum, to my knowledge, to give you a definitive answer would be Keith Larman, Patrick Hastings, Howard Clark, Rick Barrett, or Shane Allee (sorry if I butchered your last name Shane!).
Here are my impressions, and I hope that they help 
Overall, based on the greater curvature of the blade near the shoulders vs towards the tip, and the gradual decrease in the width of the blade as it approaches the tip, I would say that what you have is not a katana, but a tachi, which would suggest that the sword is far older than WWII (Good thing you didn't sell, regardless of what the actual age is it is worth FAR more than $500). Also, I get the impression that the tang was shortened at one point, probably to fit the current Gunto mounting. The lack of signature, if I remember right, was at certain points in history the norm rather than the exception, since many smiths used the shape of the hamon as their signature; although if I'm right about the tang being shortened, it is possible that the signature was on the portion of the tang that was removed.
As for the cloth with the writing, it could be a transcription of what was on the tang at one point, or from a family scroll that listed the name of the sword, the smith, the date it was made, the family name and those in the family who carried the sword in the past; or it could be something completely different  .
Hope this helps!
Rob Zamoida
"When your life is on the line, you want to make use of all your tools. No warrior should be willing to die with his swords at his sides, without having made use of his tools."
-Miyamoto Mushashi, Gorin no Sho
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John Gage
Industry Professional
Location: New Glarus, WI Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 154
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| Posted: Wed 24 Mar, 2004 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Robert,
Great info. I did a bit of online research and it is in fact a tachi it seems to be early or possibly mid Kamakura period. After noticing the blade curvature as is starts closest towards the hilt and being the blade is very delicate... thin and long i would guess it is from the earlier period. Im just speculating of course.
Here is the link to where i got the info http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/sugata/shape.htm
Any and all thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.
thanx,
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Brian M
Location: Austin, TX Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 500
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| Posted: Wed 24 Mar, 2004 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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Just for kicks I'd call that local collector back and offer to let him touch it for $500.
Brian M
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John Gage
Industry Professional
Location: New Glarus, WI Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 154
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| Posted: Wed 24 Mar, 2004 3:20 pm Post subject: more info yippy |
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It seems.... That shape and size of tachi was from The Heian period (794-1192)
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/ANCJAPAN/HEIAN.HTM
If anyone could recommend an reputable appraiser i would be most thankful.
Here are some more pics
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Patrick Hastings
Industry Professional
Location: West coast USA Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Wed 24 Mar, 2004 10:27 pm Post subject: Re: more info yippy |
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| John Gage wrote: | It seems.... That shape and size of tachi was from The Heian period (794-1192)
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/ANCJAPAN/HEIAN.HTM
If anyone could recommend an reputable appraiser i would be most thankful.
Here are some more pics |
Hi John,
I am not an expert and certainly could not date the blade accuratly beyond a certain point, but some dead giveaways as to if it is fake or not or pre world war 2 are in the character of the steel. The mass produced blades in ww2 were monosteel and do not show any evidence of being folded. In chinese blades the folded characteristic is often grossly exagerated and very plain to see. A close up of the blade surface that is in focus and shows detail would be most helpful in determining if its pre ww2 and actually of Japanese manufacture. Other than that I would deffer to the Nihonto experts. They will require good photos aswell, the ones you supplied in this thread dont say much at all, I can't tell if its a foiled habaki or a brass habaki? Can't see if hada is present or not? Based on your dimensions and the butchered looking tang with out markings, it may have been cut down from a longer blade by moving the shoulders up the blade. Then again it could be anything from anywhere at anytime....Helps allot dosn't it Need quality photos.
Patrick Hastings
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John Gage
Industry Professional
Location: New Glarus, WI Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 154
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| Posted: Thu 25 Mar, 2004 1:37 am Post subject: Re: more info yippy |
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| Patrick Hastings wrote: | | John Gage wrote: | It seems.... That shape and size of tachi was from The Heian period (794-1192)
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/ANCJAPAN/HEIAN.HTM
If anyone could recommend an reputable appraiser i would be most thankful.
Here are some more pics |
Hi John,
I am not an expert and certainly could not date the blade accuratly beyond a certain point, but some dead giveaways as to if it is fake or not or pre world war 2 are in the character of the steel. The mass produced blades in ww2 were monosteel and do not show any evidence of being folded. In chinese blades the folded characteristic is often grossly exagerated and very plain to see. A close up of the blade surface that is in focus and shows detail would be most helpful in determining if its pre ww2 and actually of Japanese manufacture. Other than that I would deffer to the Nihonto experts. They will require good photos aswell, the ones you supplied in this thread dont say much at all, I can't tell if its a foiled habaki or a brass habaki? Can't see if hada is present or not? Based on your dimensions and the butchered looking tang with out markings, it may have been cut down from a longer blade by moving the shoulders up the blade. Then again it could be anything from anywhere at anytime....Helps allot dosn't it Need quality photos. |
I know my pics suck.... I'll post some better ones this weekend. I can tell you though that the habaki (blade collar) is brazed copper peices 4 peices to be exact there is a brass color between each peice. The Hada is a straight grain. The hamon line is bairly visible but seems to be a toran hamon (billowing). It has a medium Kissaki (tip) and an ihori type mune (blade shape). There is also a few minor flaws which i will show in the better pics. I do know however from the research that i have done that this blade is folded, the flaws that is has could only be on a folded blade, there is Ware ( "Horizontal "lines" (splits) generally due to a poor weld between layers of steel"), and Shinae ("Ripples or wrinkles in the skin steel generally due to a bent blade having been straightened").
http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/kizu.htm
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Shane Allee
Industry Professional
Location: South Bend, IN Joined: 29 Aug 2003
Posts: 506
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| Posted: Thu 25 Mar, 2004 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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What the heck did I ever do to get put in with that lot? *G*
Joking aside, I'm very new to japanese swords and haven't focused much at this point in time to study the history behind them. So I'd be no help trying to date a sword like that.
Shane
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Patrick Hastings
Industry Professional
Location: West coast USA Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Thu 25 Mar, 2004 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: more info yippy |
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| John Gage wrote: | | Patrick Hastings wrote: | | John Gage wrote: | It seems.... That shape and size of tachi was from The Heian period (794-1192)
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/ANCJAPAN/HEIAN.HTM
If anyone could recommend an reputable appraiser i would be most thankful.
Here are some more pics |
Hi John,
I am not an expert and certainly could not date the blade accuratly beyond a certain point, but some dead giveaways as to if it is fake or not or pre world war 2 are in the character of the steel. The mass produced blades in ww2 were monosteel and do not show any evidence of being folded. In chinese blades the folded characteristic is often grossly exagerated and very plain to see. A close up of the blade surface that is in focus and shows detail would be most helpful in determining if its pre ww2 and actually of Japanese manufacture. Other than that I would deffer to the Nihonto experts. They will require good photos aswell, the ones you supplied in this thread dont say much at all, I can't tell if its a foiled habaki or a brass habaki? Can't see if hada is present or not? Based on your dimensions and the butchered looking tang with out markings, it may have been cut down from a longer blade by moving the shoulders up the blade. Then again it could be anything from anywhere at anytime....Helps allot dosn't it Need quality photos. |
I know my pics suck.... I'll post some better ones this weekend. I can tell you though that the habaki (blade collar) is brazed copper peices 4 peices to be exact there is a brass color between each peice. The Hada is a straight grain. The hamon line is bairly visible but seems to be a toran hamon (billowing). It has a medium Kissaki (tip) and an ihori type mune (blade shape). There is also a few minor flaws which i will show in the better pics. I do know however from the research that i have done that this blade is folded, the flaws that is has could only be on a folded blade, there is Ware ( "Horizontal "lines" (splits) generally due to a poor weld between layers of steel"), and Shinae ("Ripples or wrinkles in the skin steel generally due to a bent blade having been straightened").
http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/kizu.htm |
Personaly I would like to see some shots of this Habaki. It sounds abit unusual. For the blade It sounds like you have as much of a handle on the basic as I do and there are people that would be happy and capable of helping you on the net however not without those Quality pics. IF you go to Sword forum international and ask on the Nihonto forum I'm sure you can get several references for appraisers that you could send the blade too. Or go directly to Rich stiens site. Thier is a huge amount of info and links there that may help. http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm
Patrick Hastings
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Robert Zamoida
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| Posted: Fri 26 Mar, 2004 6:05 am Post subject: |
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Hey John,
Perhaps a good place to send your sword would be to Fred Lohman; they might be able to date and appraise it, and, if you would like, possibly remount the blade as a true tachi. Here's the link.
Fred Lohman Company
Rob Zamoida
"When your life is on the line, you want to make use of all your tools. No warrior should be willing to die with his swords at his sides, without having made use of his tools."
-Miyamoto Mushashi, Gorin no Sho
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Allen W
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| Posted: Fri 26 Mar, 2004 6:46 am Post subject: |
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Congratulations on a fine blade! I am only responding in order to slightly dampen the enthusiasm however. Though it I am no expert and it is certainly a tachi blade and probably not a gunto the attempts to date her by shape concern me. Japan in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, that is and pre-meiji, was undergoing a certain fit of nostalgia resulting in the manufacture of weapons and armour of archaic styles. Now personally I would be ecstatic to have any pre-WWII tachi or katana as you almost certainly have but I think its premature to conjecture on exact period.
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John Gage
Industry Professional
Location: New Glarus, WI Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 154
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| Posted: Fri 26 Mar, 2004 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| Allen W wrote: | | Congratulations on a fine blade! I am only responding in order to slightly dampen the enthusiasm however. Though it I am no expert and it is certainly a tachi blade and probably not a gunto the attempts to date her by shape concern me. Japan in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, that is and pre-meiji, was undergoing a certain fit of nostalgia resulting in the manufacture of weapons and armour of archaic styles. Now personally I would be ecstatic to have any pre-WWII tachi or katana as you almost certainly have but I think its premature to conjecture on exact period. |
Im not sure of the date im only going by what i have read and the fact it is a tachi(pre Katana) thus far. I just need to find out if i need to get the blade insured and for how much. I have owned the sword for many years and to me its priceless.
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Benjamin McCracken
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| Posted: Fri 26 Mar, 2004 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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John,
I can read Japanese, and even better my wife is Japanese. It looks like your sword was owned by a Masayuki Nakagawa . My wife doesn't think that it is Heian period. One thing is that the the name Masayuki Nakagawa is not a Heian period name. She thinks that it is a WWII sword.
Masayuki's name is on the left side of your picture. The right side says the division that he was part of. It looks like it was the 17th division. I hope that's helpful.
Ben
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 29 Mar, 2004 5:35 am Post subject: |
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I have no opinion one way or the other on the sword, there's way to many little complexities of a Japanese sword for me to even guess at how to date this one. However having said that seems like if someone from WWII wanted to put their name on an old sword they could...
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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John Gage
Industry Professional
Location: New Glarus, WI Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 154
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| Posted: Wed 14 Apr, 2004 11:56 am Post subject: Updated pics |
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OK I finally have some updated pics, i hope they help. I want to make it clear that i am not staing that i know that this sword is from that time period it just seems to be the shape, size and style from that period.
I hope these pics help.
Thanx,
John
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Alexi Goranov
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Wed 14 Apr, 2004 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: Updated pics |
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| John Gage wrote: | OK I finally have some updated pics, i hope they help. I want to make it clear that i am not staing that i know that this sword is from that time period it just seems to be the shape, size and style from that period.
I hope these pics help.
Thanx,
John |
Where are the updated pix?
[edit: I did not see them, or you added them as I was posting this]
Alexi
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Robert W. Betten
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| Posted: Wed 14 Apr, 2004 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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While I cant be sure the rust on the nakago looks real enough, the blade itself looks to be in very poor polished state...probably cleaned up by someone with sand paper *eep*. cant really make out with the swords polish in that state as per weather its tamahagane or just run of the mill monosteel.
*!*
"If the people we love are taken from us,
the way they live on is to never stop loving
them. Buildings burn, people die, but real
love is forever." - Sarah 'The Crow'
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John Gage
Industry Professional
Location: New Glarus, WI Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 154
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| Posted: Sat 15 May, 2004 4:49 pm Post subject: Tsuba signature |
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I was able to copy some script off the tsuba of this sword. If someone could give me more info on it, it would be greatly appreciated. I have tried to photograph and get a rub from it but it is very faint so under a magnifying glass i was able to replicate it to the best of my ability.
Regards,
John
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