[Graham Fletcher]

Hi...

A friend has unearthed these from a garden in Hampshire, Great Britain...

They at first suspected them to be of the Gladius type... but I don't believe this to be so.. too many differences... so any ideas anyone ?

The damage to one sword was done by the excavator bucket... these were unearthed only yesterday (Saturday 23rd June ) which is why I was called to try and I.D them (Archaeological background...) ... but I don't have enough expertise in this area to be be sure...

[Martin Whalen]

Hmm!! Interesting, I would bet my money on it being a Baselard, it's the right length, right shape, and the hilt also bodes well for a Baselard. Umm, let me get some examples, brb.

Having a hard time finding anything online, but my books show examples similar to this. Sadly, thanks to the net being a bad place to search for info on swords, all I can say is it is most likely a Baselard, I won't say a date though, not an expert, research Baselards though, and you'll find out more.

::Edit:: Following is from "Arms and Armor glossary of terms".

"Baselard: A knife or short sword bearing a hilt in the shape of the letter 'I', originating in southern Germany during the late 13th century. It quickly became the weapon of choice for many footsoldiers."

And this from "Swords and Hilt Weapons". "One of the best known forms of medieval dagger is the baselard. This had a distinctive crosspeice at both the guard and pommel end, giving the hilt the appearance of a capital I. The type almost certainly originated in Switzerland and can be traced back to the thirteenth century. It seems to have been accociated with the city of Basel, hence its name, but it was widely carried throughout Europe, especially in the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries. As a satrirical English song of the period says: "There is no man worth a leke, Be he sturdy, be he meke, But he bear a basilard." Versions with wood and bone hilts were common, but silver hilts were also used."

In the same chapter are two examples of baselards, one is quite similar to yours, it is English, has a smaller pommel compared to the guard, and has iron mounts.

That's the best I can do, not much online. Good luck.

::Second Edit:: It was also very common for civilians to carry, and I assume you didn't get it at a battlefield, so that's also good news for the Baselard theory. Perhaps it was a murder weapon, as plenty of discarded civilian weapons may have been.

::Third edit:: I guess I was wrong, in my defence though, I thought there was only one sword, not two, I guess I figured they were the same but from different angles. Still though, there were baselards with one peice hilts, I'm looking right at one.

[Joe Fults]

The pommel, grip, and guard all look like one cast piece that is then secured to the blade, in the photo. Is this the case or is it a photographic artifact?

If its a single cast part I would guess some kind of decorator item or theater prop (perhaps).

Hard to be certain what the assembly is for a photo though.

[Peter Johnsson]

During the late 18th and 19th C various short swords for different troups were developed that were inspired by a faschination for everything "Roman" or "Greek". This was a trend that was followed in many countries.
There are several examples of short swords with single piece hilts cast of bronze.
I have never seen an example looking like the ones you have posted however.

The construction still make me think of such weapons. I would be curious to know if anyone has a better knowledge of military weapons for say artillery or engineers during the 19th C that could match these?

It could also be something that has to do with theater, as has been suggested alerady.

It would be surprising if these swords date to more ancient times, as they are so unique. Still, there is a nagging feeling that something is not quite what it seems with these.

If they *are* from roman iron age (or earlier!?), they would be truly sensational, as they represent something really new and unique in that context. The shape of the guard: flat towards the blade and rounded with swelling ends on the side of the grip mostly echo that of the Greek Xiphos. They are not Greek Xiphos, but are for some reason influenced by this shape.
They really do not look like anything from later medieval times. Nothing you could directly compare to exists to my knowledge. Short swords (basilards) from high medeval times normally look very different from this.

The fact they are so similar *but not identical* and and found together is also remarcable and might signify something.
Is it known what this plot of land where they were found has been used for in the past two centuries?
At what depth were they found?
Are there known cultural layers?
The hilts are obviously carved/modelled (= the wax orgininal used for casting) to be of same shape/type, but each of them seems to be shaped more or less induvidually by hand as the detailing of ridges and groves are unique and "personal" on both. The pommel is also strikingly similar, but different on both. A construction with a tang being rivetted as it protrudes through the pommel is a classic method that does not help very much in dating.
The cross section of the blade (on the less damaged one) seems to be a rounded midrib with shallow fullers on each side extending from the blade base almost to the point(?). This is another feature that might hint at something else than 19th C date: ricassos were very popular features on most military blades at this time. Still, it is nothing that you can firmly date the weapon by. Exceptions are always possible.
The more I think about these two swords it seems they might either be authentic and very ancient, or modern fakes.
Interesting!

[Matthew Amt]

I'd guess 19th century as well. They are definitely NOT Roman (or Greek), but could very much be Neo-Classical. Try to track down some source on mid-19th century weaponry, and I'll bet you find them there.

Boy, all I dig up in my back yard are plastic toys and a bumblebee nest!

Matthew

[Graham Fletcher]

Thanks for the help so far... more photos tomorrow and location of find background info if possible....

[Jonathan Hopkins]

I will just echo the opinions that these are likely 19th century swords. They don't match any British military patterns, but that does not preclude use by a yeomanry unit (artillery possibly?). Other possible uses could be theatrical, fraternal (Masonic, etc.), or even for use by guards/security at a 19th century fair or exposition. If they were issued to other ranks troops (privates) I would expect the hilts to be brass instead of bronze. An interesting find!

Jonathan

[Sean Belair]

The hilts are corroding differently then the blades. Can you tell what type of metal the hilts are?

[Fabrice Cognot]

Nice post, Peter.

I would also be in favour of the 19th/early 20th theory. Several hints to that : overall grips shapes, and details at tang end area. Other close-detailed pics might help.


Brass would be more likely for the handles IMO.

[Richard Wells]

I'd go with the theatrical theory - the hilts look like factory castings - in the last 150 years.

[Sean Belair]

Your best bet would be to email the pictures to your local archeological or arms and armor institution, they would have a better idea of what turns up in your area. My money is on 19th 20th century manufacture but it could be a little known local variant of something else.

[Jean-Carle Hudon]

That shape and length of blade, and hilt, was quite popular as a choice for buglers or drummers swords in the XIXth century.
I have seen some in Southwick's Antique Edged Weapons. That shape and general length (with a lot of variety) can be seen in hunting swords of the same period, though the blades are more slender and fullered with much decoration on the hilts,
I would go for XIXth century band. One note of interest, Southwick mentions that the hilts were often cast iron. What is the material ?
JCH

[Nick B.]

You could try the Higgins Armoury Museum In Worcester, Mass.. They are the only Museum dedicated only to arms and armour in the Western Hemisphere. I would think if anyone could help you, they could.

[Randall Moffett]

If they were in Hampshire still I'd say you'd be in luck. There are plenty of people down in this area that could help. If so let me know and I will get you some contact info.

They look similar to some swords that were issued in the end I beleive to a naval unit but originally were intended for some other aux. group in the 19th. I think the Edinburgh Castle has some similar but with brass hilts from the same era.

RPM

[Alexander Hinman]

I'm putting stock in with the theatrical or fraternal theory, as those hilts look like they're cast from lead.

The white/grey discolouration and rust stains remind me of archaeological examples of lead or lead alloys I've seen.

That being said it would be pretty interesting to trace the history behind these swords.

[Hal Siegel]

Just as a follow-up to earlier 19th century comments - these do not match any artillery/engineer/pioneer military sidearms that I'm aware of (and I'm pretty aware of these things, they're some of my favorite toys )

Are more pictures and construction details available?