[Peter Bosman]

Wow, I wil have to read that again. Quite a lot to try follow up again too.
Thank you Simon.

I just checked and on the base of your description the one I picked up once is a Mk2 and is complete with its bolster which is a more apt name then sheeth or scabbard indeed. I use it to chop my way though low branches on hrseback. Maybe not the most apt thing to do with it then and maybe I should by a machete or fabricate something from an old hoofrasp, but it does perfom véry well.

Ok, so the greek may ver well have brought the basic idea of the kuhkri to its region of origin.

As to the origins of the týpe I am still not 'conviced' as the greek did not invent this themselves just like most of what they did was a product of the world they lived in and the renaissance (and resulting 'inherited' follow-up) has greatly distorted our view on their role in history. That is not the issue however.
I am still researching but am inclined to think early distrubution of the evolved kopis, facata - type was a mediterranean thing predating the rise of the greek.

Supposing that the archetype was a middle eastern devellopment there is reason to assume that through the intensive trade connections with the indus valley the archetype was known there too.

Difficult, as it was a lóng time ago and we are looking through a magnifying glass at incidental fragments of a HUGE picture of 'condensed' time...

Thank you all for the VERY serious contibutions sofar.

Peter

[Kostas Papados]

[David Sutton]

Kostas, thanks for replying to my questions. Don't worry about taking your time, I'd sooner you did and gave a good comprehensive answer than shooting straight back and giving me poor one!

- As to hoplite tactics; I think the theory is very interesting and very plausible in my opinion. After I wrote my last post I downloaded the image and had a closer look (probably should have done beforehand), and the solders depicted do look very close to hoplites. Also, as you state, other Indian armies of the period used different equipment, for example different shield shapes etc. Its a shame there are so few sources of information other than carvings and wall paintings. Indo-Greek civilization is a very interesting field and definitely needs a closer investigation. Its interesting to note that Alexander was surprised to find that there were already Greek communities living and trading well beyond what was thought of as the 'Greek world' at the time so Greek influence must have spread to some extent.

- As to the Kopis/Falcata question; I decided to look through the, admittedly small number of, relevant of books I have and did a little light research. It transpires that there are two trains of thought over the origin of the Falcata. The first is that it developed from curved 'Halstatt' style knives introduced form the north by celtic settlers. The second is that it is a derivative of the Greek Kopis introduced by traders and colonists. I think the latter theory to be the most plausible. If the Falcata was derived form Halstatt knives, then why do similar weapons not appear any further north? Early Falcatas resemble the Kopis quite closely, especially the styling of their grips, which appear initially formed like birds heads as the Kopis, and later formed like horse heads, unlike the Kopis. It seems evident that wherever there is Greek influence Kopis-like swords appear for example Spain, Italy and India (with the Khukri).

- I think, as you have suggested, that the Kopis itself is probably a development of the sickle like swords found among the thracians and other tribes living north of the Greek states.

- As a weapon the Falcata/Kopis must have been a fierce opponent to face. The Romans certainly didn't like its ability to chop off hands arms and probably heads too! The Celt-Iberians were also master metal workers and Spanish swords were of superior quality long before Toledo steel. Probably why the Romans adopted the Gladius Hispanienss, though they found the forging of similar quality sword steel hard going.

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

[Peter Bosman]

[David Sutton]

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

[Shane Allee]

[quote="Jeroen Zuiderwijk"]

[Fernando Q.]

There are falcata blades made with three different plates welded together when in the forge. Others were forged out of just one solid bar of iron. The quality vaires from indifferent to good, but few analysis have been made yet. But no traces of intentional carburation have been found. Experience and luck -a good ingot of raw iron with some carbon contents in it- probably made the difference.

IMHO there is no a direct relationship at all between falcata and kukri. They are essentially different artifacts. The falcata is a two-edged weapon (even if it looks a sabre it's got two edges in the distal part of the blade), apt for both thusrting and cutting. The small kukri is an altogether different instrument. And the big, two handed, sacrificial version is still another thing.

Also, I do not see more reasons to have the kukri derivate from the greek kopis than to believe that the kopis itself and the Bronze-Age khepesh are related. They only share a general shape, but differ in all important details: size, function, percussion centre, gravity center, hilt shape, fullers, etc.

BTW, it is Quesada-Sanz, not Sanz!

Best Regards

Fernando Quesada-Sanz

[Kirk Lee Spencer]

Hi Fernando...

Thanks for the excellent post!

And let me be the first to say welcome to myArmoury

It's good to have you here.

ks

[Fernando Q.]

Thank you very much for your welcome!

In fact, I browse the Forums occasionally, and I'm amazed at the amount of knowledge here... if my academic colleagues realized how little we know about weapons in comparison...!

I only wish I had more time to contribute in matters I have researched, but at least I enjoy your discussions very much

Best Regards

Fernando

[Geoff Wood]

Hi
a couple of minor comments. Just back from Madrid. In the Archaeological museum there, I noted, as Mr Quesada-Sanz has stated above, that the falcata on display had a very obvious 'back' edge, quite unlike anything I've seen on a khukri. Also, as regards length, they were small, as Mr Zuiderwijk has stated. I was judging by eye and 8 inch hand spans through glass, so I couldn't be precise on dimensions, but I'd be surprised if the blades exceeded 16 inch and they were probably shorter. A couple had handles closed over the knuckle. Lovely things. Silver inlay on blades and handles was particularly attractive. I didn't (couldn't) photograph and nor could I find illustrations to purchase.
that's all
geoff

[Shane Allee]

I'm terribly sorry about the last name mistake Mr. Quesada-Sanz. It is great to have you here. Your research has been a great help to many of us. I'm also sorry if we have at times been a source of frustration for you in how your work has been represented on the forum. There seem to be many misconceptions about these weapons and any time when you can help use better understand them we would be very greatful.

Thinking about it having construction of the better edge material as a core with the sandwich style construction really does make the most since. You would then have the core material also exposed along the back edge as well correct?

Shane

[Fernando Q.]

Hi Shane, glad to 'meet' you,

Yes, the core material shows at the back edge in the falcata when there's a sandwich style construction.
As for size, perhaps this will be useful.
Out of a sample of 189 complete falcatas, the average lenght is 60.2 cm. THe longest is 71.5 cm. (from Cigarralejo, Murcia), and the smallest is 41 cm (grave 370 at La Osera, Avila).

But of course blade lenght is more useful. Out of a sample of 244 blades (more falcatas have at least a complete blade), the average blade lenght is 48.9 cm. The shortest blade comes from Osera (32,2 cm.); the longest is 61.2 cm.

Thus, there is a big range ofg dimensions, which is due both to geographical and chronological reasons. The oldest falcatas from the Southeast (Murcia, Alicante, dated do the 5th and early fourth c. BC) are the biggest, while the most recent from Celtiberia tend to be smaller. But of course this is only in general terms; you can still find a small falcata from Murcia in the first half of the 4th c. BC

Best Regards

Fernando Quesada-Sanz


PS

Don´'t worry about my name. The structure of Spanish prsonal names is a bit different. We have a first name (Fernando) that can occasionally be composite (i.e. Fernando-José), then the father's surname (Quesada), then the mother's surname (Sanz), so that neither is lost, at least during the first generation.

PS2
Kirk, just to make sure. Did you receive my email?

[Kostas Papados]

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]