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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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Posted: Sat 01 Dec, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: Need 15th c. helmet advice |
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I'm looking for advice for my mid-15th c. harness (see attached photo). I would like a new helmet (the old one is a little too big for me), and I'm likely going to go through bestarmour.com.
I'm thinking about another sallet, and am likely going to go with the SS 4.5 seen here:
[ Linked Image ]
With the NG 2.1 bevor:
[ Linked Image ]
However, I was debating other options. I'm thinking of the possibility of an open faced sallet with bevor, specifically the SS 1.5:
[ Linked Image ]
I'm not sure if the last one would fit with my harness or not. I also was debating a different type of helmet altogether. I've always been fond of the barbuta, such as the BB 1.1:
[ Linked Image ]
...but that one doesn't seem to fit my harness. Thoughts?
And I would also like opinions on other options as well. I'm looking for historical accuracy, and I'd like to stay below $800 (I'd like the price to be much less, if possible). This harness is used primarily for demonstration of WMA techniques. I don't really do any free play in it, though I do occassionally do light harnisfechten. As such, its okay if I use an open faced helmet (I usually have my visor up while teaching anyway), and it's okay if the gauge is not that thick (but I don't want it to be too light, either).
Attachment: 86.41 KB
![armour_small.jpg](files/armour_small_166.jpg)
The current harness.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Michael Edelson
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Posted: Sat 01 Dec, 2007 9:22 am Post subject: |
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Hi Bill,
This isn't about your hemlet, but I noticed you have the windlass arms...
The couters on those arms are actualluy quite nice, but for some reason they make them way too "open", to the point of being inaccurate and a bit ridiculous. Look at your picture and how they stick out like silly litttle wings. This is easily remedied, however, by simply "squashing" them to size for your arms.
Just put them on a flat surface and push them closed untill they float just a bit over your arms.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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Posted: Sat 01 Dec, 2007 9:31 am Post subject: |
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Michael Edelson wrote: | Hi Bill,
This isn't about your hemlet, but I noticed you have the windlass arms...
The couters on those arms are actualluy quite nice, but for some reason they make them way too "open", to the point of being inaccurate and a bit ridiculous. Look at your picture and how they stick out like silly litttle wings. This is easily remedied, however, by simply "squashing" them to size for your arms.
Just put them on a flat surface and push them closed untill they float just a bit over your arms. |
Yeah, I've actually been meaning to do exactly that forever now. In fact, it's on my to-do list during my holiday time off.
One of these days those are getting replaced with nicer ones, but for the moment they work.
Peter Fuller did some additional work on my pauldrons which made them much nicer than the stock MRL ones. I can raise my arms naturally now, which I couldn't do originally.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Douglas Huxtable
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Posted: Sat 01 Dec, 2007 10:12 am Post subject: |
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Hi Bill,
Although im not an expert I would say you should definately go with the visored-sallet, but there are plenty of awesome sallets on bestarmour.com's website, I think that the one you posted and many other visored-sallets of theirs would look awesome with your harness and fairly accurate as although for some reason i cant see the whole pic of your harness it looks like you have some very gothic-like parts which matches the visored-sallet.
I dont personally think the open faced sallet would go very well with the bevor youve chosen and your harness.
Humans trail a path of light, all land and space that hasnt been trodden by man is dark, all dark must be trodden to bring illumination, so that all others can follow the light that we bring.
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James Barker
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Location: Ashburn VA Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 365
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Posted: Tue 04 Dec, 2007 6:47 am Post subject: |
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Bill
What part of the 15th c do you want to do and what area? Things like articulated tails and reinforcements on the crown are later 15th century features.
James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
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Torsten F.H. Wilke
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Location: Irvine Spectrum, CA Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 250
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Posted: Tue 04 Dec, 2007 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Bill, I would like to recommend the open-faced sallet. Not for any particular historical reasons, just what seems to fit your personality if one can truly guess at a personality on the internet. And, those helms seem to be fairly unique these days...
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Sean Flynt
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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Posted: Tue 04 Dec, 2007 8:53 am Post subject: |
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James Barker wrote: | Bill
What part of the 15th c do you want to do and what area? Things like articulated tails and reinforcements on the crown are later 15th century features. |
Hi James,
Well, I'm thinking Germanic, between 1460 and 1480, with some "fudge" room between the dates. Since I don't do living history, it's not vital to me to get it completely accurate down to the year, but I still want it to be accurate enough that when I do WMA demonstrations I'm not portraying something false.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Sean Flynt
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Posted: Tue 04 Dec, 2007 9:01 am Post subject: |
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I would also put in a vote for the open-faced sallet. So much armour in the mid-15th c. came from Northern Italy, and the Italians loved them some open-faced celatas. This type also has a distinct advantage for instruction, since it doesn't obstruct your voice or vision. Some might think of the type as inappropriate for someone of rank and wealth, but one can see mounted men at arms wearing these in contemporary artwork. You'd save a bundle, too.
There is a visorless, articulated-tail Brescian sallet of ca. 1475 in the Churburg armoury, but the Best Armour sallet looks a bit off to me for some reason. If they have a "jawbone"-visored sallet with a longer fixed tail, you might consider that or just a typical export sallet.
-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Sean Flynt
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James Barker
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Location: Ashburn VA Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 365
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Posted: Tue 04 Dec, 2007 9:38 am Post subject: |
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For a German look I would aim for a long tail without articulation. You could do a solid visor as well but I would go with one you can lift so you could lower it if you want too.
James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
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Jean Thibodeau
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Posted: Tue 04 Dec, 2007 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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Have a look here: http://www.flarcheveque.com/#
Click on English and then products, helmets and you will see a variety of visored and open faced Sallets.
The is also the in stock section as I don't know what his production times to delivery are like.
I've seen his work up close and it's impressive.
A couple of the open face ones seem within your price range.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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Posted: Tue 04 Dec, 2007 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks all for the input. I'm still debating the pros and cons of various styles.
Sean Flynt wrote: | What sallet are you using currently, Bill? What about it isn't working for you, other than size? |
Sorry, Sean, I'd missed this question the first time. It's an old Tony Swatton design, and my only problem is that it's a little big. Even if I stick with it, I'll still need a bevor. Honestly, I like it... but it's pretty obvious when I wear it that it was sized for someone with a bigger noggin.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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Posted: Tue 04 Dec, 2007 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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James Barker wrote: | For a German look I would aim for a long tail without articulation. You could do a solid visor as well but I would go with one you can lift so you could lower it if you want too. |
Unfortunately price is a limiting factor. The long tails tend to cost a bit more, and if I go with a visor then I definately want it to lift. I still need a bevor, too, and all of this adds up.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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Posted: Tue 04 Dec, 2007 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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While it definately has a more Italian look to it, what are people's opinion of a barbuta? Does it work with the harness above?
Here are two somewhat similar harnesses to mine (courtesy of bestarmour.com), one with barbuta, one with sallet & bevor.
[ Linked Image ]
and
[ Linked Image ]
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Sean Flynt
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Posted: Wed 05 Dec, 2007 7:27 am Post subject: |
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Bill Grandy wrote: |
Sorry, Sean, I'd missed this question the first time. It's an old Tony Swatton design, and my only problem is that it's a little big. Even if I stick with it, I'll still need a bevor. Honestly, I like it... but it's pretty obvious when I wear it that it was sized for someone with a bigger noggin. ![Happy](images/smiles/icon_smile.gif) |
The reason I ask is because some repro helmets have a very thin leather liner (Windlass, for example). Those can make the piece seem like a cave and they slide around on the head. Making an historical padded fabric liner is pretty easy and it could make a big difference in the fit and stability of the helmet. That can only go so far, though, so if it's like wearing a trashcan on your head, a little more padding likely wouldn't help.
Do you have any photos of your helmet?
You haven't mentioned kettle hats. BA has some beauties that look great with bevors. I really like the barbuta, by the way. I do keep coming back to the visorless sallet and bevor. BA has this nice set (it helped inspire the work on my Thaden sallet and bevor ).
Attachment: 49.1 KB
![D X 6.jpg](files/d_x_6_202.jpg)
-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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Posted: Wed 05 Dec, 2007 8:27 am Post subject: |
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Sean Flynt wrote: | Do you have any photos of your helmet? |
Well, its a bad picture, but I'll attach it. You can kind of see how it's significantly bigger than my head (and its even more obvious in person).
Quote: | You haven't mentioned kettle hats. BA has some beauties that look great with bevors. I really like the barbuta, by the way. I do keep coming back to the visorless sallet and bevor. BA has this nice set (it helped inspire the work on my Thaden sallet and bevor ). |
I agree that a kettle hat would work great, but they really aren't my style.
Attachment: 62.75 KB
![helmet_close-up.jpg](files/helmet_close-up_126.jpg)
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Sean Flynt
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Jean Thibodeau
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Posted: Wed 05 Dec, 2007 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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Being a bit on the big side can be a good thing as one wants the bevor edge and the sallet not get in the way of each other.
Oh, even with the open face sallet I think one can get a lot of protection to the upper face by just " Turtleling " the head by shrugging the shoulders up ? Just my theory, curious if it makes sense to others.
With a visored sallet there can be a gap between the bottom edge of the sallet and the top edge of the bevor and this can be an advantage as one can get a breath of air tilting back the head and get protection by the previously mentioned
" Turtleling ".
By the way wouldn't an upward thrust aiming for under the rim of the sallet and over the rim of the bevor have been a basic halfswording target ? ( Just a little drifting into armoured combat: Hope not too much off-topic, but choosing the type of sallet is a compromise between comfort, vision/breathing and level of coverage ).
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Chuck Russell
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Posted: Thu 06 Dec, 2007 4:50 am Post subject: |
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have you checked on Best Armoury's wait time? last i heard it was almost 2 years on the wait. also if you order from them you need to be very specific with your head size. Lord Greys ordered a few helmets from them and most were too small to put in proper liners. So you need to remember to tell them you want to put a liner in the helmet before hand
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