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P Ballou




Location: N California
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Dec, 2006 4:00 pm    Post subject: ATrim's Tactical Swords         Reply with quote

I don't know if this is the right forum for this topic, but I'd be interested to see some discussion from myArmoury folks of Angus Trim's Tactical Swords. In my view, these are an exciting mix of modern and historical functional art. They look beautiful, practical, and lethal. Eric Blacksmith's coining of the phrase, "When the bullets run out" on ATrim's web site adds a nice contemporary twist to what otherwise might seem like obsolete weapons. It makes me consider keeping one parked behind the front door.

http://www.angustrimdirect.com/tacswords.htm

BTW, I learned of these swords from this thread at Sword Forum Intl:

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=74631

Phil
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Dec, 2006 4:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have moved this topic to the off-topic forum because these items are modern-day tactical weapons and not historically-based.

Please note that the Historic Arms Talk forum is described as "Discussions of reproduction and authentic historical arms and armour from various cultures and time periods"

Thanks for the head's up. I didn't know Gus had put up a page for them yet on his site.

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Sean Belair
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Dec, 2006 5:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i think the "tactical" look is ugly. it is a matter of personal preference.
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P Ballou




Location: N California
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Dec, 2006 5:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
I have moved this topic to the off-topic forum because these items are modern-day tactical weapons and not historically-based.


You're right, I should get it right next time. Happy "Historical" refers to things of the past, but "tactical swords", throwbacks that they are, are still modern.

Now, having googled "tactical swords", I see that the term seems to be an established reference to blacked-out machetes. I should have known. Notwithstanding, Angus Trim's tactical swords do seem to me to have more style and class than most of the other stuff out there.

Phil
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Bryce Felperin




Location: San Jose, CA
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Dec, 2006 6:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Something for Mall Ninjas. ;-)

The prices seem reasonable though, and they are A-Trim after all. So I'm sure the performance is very nice. Heck, I may buy one myself for the price and maker.

However I don't think they would be very useful in a modern combat setting.

Modern warfare is very different than pre-19th century warfare in a key critical point. In pre-19th century warfare you stayed upright and standing while fighting. If you became prone, then you were either vulnerable to attack from melee weapons or you couldn't reload your weapon if you were armed with early firearms. You didn't "hit the deck" and you couldn't fight with your weapons very well in a prone position either. If cartridge loaders of the mid-19th century were more difficult to fire and reload than when standing or sitting up. It wasn't till the modern bolt action rifle that firing prone and reloading became easy (maybe lever actions in some situations too).

In modern warfare you are highly encouraged to go prone and fight from a prone position. In fact if you don't with artillery, mortars and bombs blowing up nearby, machineguns blazing and aimed rifle fire from several hundred yards range, you die! In modern combat you crawl on the ground and try to move prone or in short bursts from cover to cover. Keeping a low silouette, using cover and maneuver to move and finding a good bit of cover to fire from are needed.

Now where would you put a sword in that situation to carry and use? If you wear it on the hip it impinges your ability to move. If you put it on your back you can't draw it easy and it becomes so much dead weight. Knives, even long ones up to 12" or so, can be worn on the belt and allow some flexability of movement but they're still back up weapons. Swords would get in the way and be more a pain than a plus in those situations. Besides your main weapon is rifle. If it jams or you're out of ammo, and then subjected to melee situations, well then you're going to be using that as an immediate club. You won't have time to draw another weapon and you'll be too busy trying to fend off grapples or bayonets to be playing with sword work. This of course assumes your opponent is out of ammo too, because otherwise you are dead when he shoots you. No you'd be using your rifle butt, rocks, canteen cup or whatever you can get you hands on first before you'd have an opportunity to get a sword into play. Once repeating rifles with magazine capacity were developed the age of the sword was over.

In civilian use you might make a case for a sword over gun if you can attack from surprise or in close confines. However I wouldn't be walking around with one about town or I'd get arrested and questioned a lot by the cops. Carrying it concealed anywhere is a felony! Besides people in society freak when weapons are shown. For that matter in certain UK countries they're making knives illegal.

I love swords and I train with them, but I'm not stupid enough to think that events will come just right for me to use one in combat or self-defense. I'd rather carry a good folding knife instead and a gun where I can legally carry one concealed (for me Utah and 24 other states).

Of course they do look kind of cool...in a modernist sort of way. :-)

BTW I'm critisizing the concept, not the product here. I'm sure they are an excellent product by an excellent maker and perform very well. So Gus if you're reading this please don't take offense, I'm sure you sell a lot of them too. :-)
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Dec, 2006 7:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gus said something on SFI that I think really hits the nail on the head for my feelings. Tactical swords in a way are sort of along the lines of fantasy swords. They're cool "what if" types of weapons, and if done right can be fully functional in a "what if" scenario. The majority of people who will buy one will likely not be in the military, or a body guard, or law enforcement. The majority of people will be guys like me who just like swords.

I doubt I'll ever buy a tactical longsword, but I must admit, I think it's cool in a way.

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Dec, 2006 8:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
Gus said something on SFI that I think really hits the nail on the head for my feelings. Tactical swords in a way are sort of along the lines of fantasy swords. They're cool "what if" types of weapons, and if done right can be fully functional in a "what if" scenario. The majority of people who will buy one will likely not be in the military, or a body guard, or law enforcement. The majority of people will be guys like me who just like swords.

I doubt I'll ever buy a tactical longsword, but I must admit, I think it's cool in a way.


And there is nothing wrong with what IF ! Or, at least most of us appreciate the value of a fantasy life.

I can still see the theoretical value under very rare and specific situations ( most of them as fantasy. )
Extreme close quarter fighting maybe by the highest level of special forces wearing very good body armour with a strong element of surprise. Oh, and in a really good X-Box game. Razz Laughing Out Loud

The Kukri used by the Gurkas may not have had real impact in battle but their reputation as fierce warriors and the kukri as a fearsome weapon probably had a lot of psychological impact out of proportion to actual combat use. ( Some real use taking out sentries may have really happened though. )

All that said the designs are really cool. Cool

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Angus Trim




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Dec, 2006 9:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bryce Felperin wrote:
Something for Mall Ninjas. ;-)

The prices seem reasonable though, and they are A-Trim after all. So I'm sure the performance is very nice. Heck, I may buy one myself for the price and maker.

However I don't think they would be very useful in a modern combat setting.

Modern warfare is very different than pre-19th century warfare in a key critical point. In pre-19th century warfare you stayed upright and standing while fighting. If you became prone, then you were either vulnerable to attack from melee weapons or you couldn't reload your weapon if you were armed with early firearms. You didn't "hit the deck" and you couldn't fight with your weapons very well in a prone position either. If cartridge loaders of the mid-19th century were more difficult to fire and reload than when standing or sitting up. It wasn't till the modern bolt action rifle that firing prone and reloading became easy (maybe lever actions in some situations too).

In modern warfare you are highly encouraged to go prone and fight from a prone position. In fact if you don't with artillery, mortars and bombs blowing up nearby, machineguns blazing and aimed rifle fire from several hundred yards range, you die! In modern combat you crawl on the ground and try to move prone or in short bursts from cover to cover. Keeping a low silouette, using cover and maneuver to move and finding a good bit of cover to fire from are needed.

Now where would you put a sword in that situation to carry and use? If you wear it on the hip it impinges your ability to move. If you put it on your back you can't draw it easy and it becomes so much dead weight. Knives, even long ones up to 12" or so, can be worn on the belt and allow some flexability of movement but they're still back up weapons. Swords would get in the way and be more a pain than a plus in those situations. Besides your main weapon is rifle. If it jams or you're out of ammo, and then subjected to melee situations, well then you're going to be using that as an immediate club. You won't have time to draw another weapon and you'll be too busy trying to fend off grapples or bayonets to be playing with sword work. This of course assumes your opponent is out of ammo too, because otherwise you are dead when he shoots you. No you'd be using your rifle butt, rocks, canteen cup or whatever you can get you hands on first before you'd have an opportunity to get a sword into play. Once repeating rifles with magazine capacity were developed the age of the sword was over.

In civilian use you might make a case for a sword over gun if you can attack from surprise or in close confines. However I wouldn't be walking around with one about town or I'd get arrested and questioned a lot by the cops. Carrying it concealed anywhere is a felony! Besides people in society freak when weapons are shown. For that matter in certain UK countries they're making knives illegal.

I love swords and I train with them, but I'm not stupid enough to think that events will come just right for me to use one in combat or self-defense. I'd rather carry a good folding knife instead and a gun where I can legally carry one concealed (for me Utah and 24 other states).

Of course they do look kind of cool...in a modernist sort of way. :-)

BTW I'm critisizing the concept, not the product here. I'm sure they are an excellent product by an excellent maker and perform very well. So Gus if you're reading this please don't take offense, I'm sure you sell a lot of them too. :-)


About eight months ago, Eric's next door neighbor, a platoon seargent in one of Fort Lewis' Stryker brigade's, told him a story of having entered a house {in Iraq} with his squadmates. After emptying his M4, he had a hostile approach him with a likewise empty AK47, and he drew his wakizashi, and ended the threat.......

I can't verify the story, in fact, being a veteran myself, I tend to take war stories that can't be backed up with a grain of salt.....

But, its apparent that some units allow privately owned edged weapons to be carried.

After the story, Eric showed him his AT Falchion {19 inch blade}, and they did the obligatory cutting session. After which, to make a long story shorter, we set up a quantity/ service discount with him, he and his mates were going to order at least 6 falchions........... Didn't happen, they got deployed to Iraq a bit early.......

But that got me to thinkin' about a practical shortsword for that kind of duty. Which led to a Tac Kat, because if you're going to go "tactical", then you almost have to have a tactical kat......

Then the line kind of evolved beyond what I'd initially intended.......... I got talked into a Tac Leafblade, and a Tac Longsword......... Neither really fit into my concept of a self defense sword, or a reasonable "field sword", but that's where most of the interest lies right now........ I'm sold out of those right now........

The "line" now has three different directions..... what I consider reasonable "field" choices, the shortswords....... the obligatory and aesthetic pieces, the tackats and the leafies, and the swords that would cut better than the AT bastard sword that was used in the test that cut the hanging deer carcass in half....... the Tac longsword, backsword, and saber......

swords are fun
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Angus Trim




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Dec, 2006 9:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
Gus said something on SFI that I think really hits the nail on the head for my feelings. Tactical swords in a way are sort of along the lines of fantasy swords. They're cool "what if" types of weapons, and if done right can be fully functional in a "what if" scenario. The majority of people who will buy one will likely not be in the military, or a body guard, or law enforcement. The majority of people will be guys like me who just like swords.

I doubt I'll ever buy a tactical longsword, but I must admit, I think it's cool in a way.


None of the first five buyers are in the military, or a body guard, or law enforcement...... None of those on the waiting lists are either.........

The thing is, these handle like the more "historical" swords do, have similar dynamics, but at least in the case of the tac longsword, cut better than the similar longsword...........really......

And I don't have an answer for it............{yet}........

swords are fun
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Dec, 2006 9:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can't really comment on the military application for these things since a pocket knife was the only blade I carried in the Navy and the only times I had to do nasty things to people it was with a .50 cal M2 or a 20mm chain gun, so these wouldn't have been much use to me. However, during my years on my agencies tactical unit I always carried a fixed bladed knife somewhere on my gear, because, as anyone who "has the t-shirt" can tell you, as soon as you go through the door and the first shot is fired the best planning goes out the window. These seem valid to me simply because they're something that's just nice to have available. I see more validity in several of these than any of the "tactical" folding knives we coppers love to carry(I've always thought that concept a bit ridiculous).

Honestly Gus, I think these are some of the most interesting things you've come up with.


Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Thu 07 Dec, 2006 9:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jeremiah Swanger




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Dec, 2006 9:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:

I doubt I'll ever buy a tactical longsword, but I must admit, I think it's cool in a way.


...And when the Zombie invasion begins and you are caught without a weapon of defense, don't go crying to Gus! Razz

"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."

- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
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Sam Barris




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Dec, 2006 11:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You know, I kind of like those. I want to see the entire line first, but I can see myself buying one. I carried a Hissatsu jury-rigged to my body armor on my last deployment and loved everything about it, but never had occasion to get stabbity on anyone. The weapons I've personally seen employed in acts of violence range from the Tomahawk missile to the Beretta M-9, with the .50 caliber machine gun taking center stage and the M-16, M-4 and M-14 filling in around the edges. No knives. Certainly no swords.

That said, I do believe that some kind of short sword--the kindjal or kodachi strike me as excellent candidates--would be a good addition to a CQB kit, assuming that proper training was conducted prior to deployment. That would be the big drawback for military use. Training is expensive and nobody likes paying for it. And if you don't train first, you'll just hurt yourself or a teammate or end up in prison for running someone through while clearing rooms with a freaking sword. That'd be fun. And unless the weapon was small enough, you'd be poking your buddies with your hilt when your team stacks up on a door. (I can hear it now, "Jones, that'd better be your hilt!") I have a hard time believing that a soldier was actually allowed to carry a wakazashi, but stranger things have happened. That's one understanding CO.

In spite of the drawbacks, though, I just like swords, and I like to think that there can still be a military role for them outside of fancy dress sabers. Am I a hopeless romantic? Well, yes. Did I read Dune when I was young and impressionable? Absolutely. But I can see a practical advantage, too. I look forward to seeing more of that line, Gus!

And seriously, the zombies are coming eventually. I don't want to be caught unarmed when they do. Big Grin

Pax,
Sam Barris

"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
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Taylor Ellis




PostPosted: Thu 07 Dec, 2006 11:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

hmm... US urban SOPs must be very different to Aussie ones. I love swords, but I just cant see them being worth the hassle in any modern urban situation. If by some reasion, every gun in your brick has a stoppage, then its much faster to have a bayonet fixed and charge straight in than drop your gat, pull out a sword and charge in.
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Alex Oster




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Dec, 2006 12:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't know what the current regulations are, but I used to sell tactical knives to guys on their way to war. A few would bring in things to show me that were definately not regulation. Some had rather awesome modern tomahawks and I sold my share of SOG's.

Neat idea, but not my bag so much.

The pen is mightier than the sword, especially since it can get past security and be stabbed it into a jugular.
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Taylor Ellis




PostPosted: Fri 08 Dec, 2006 4:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alex Oster wrote:
I don't know what the current regulations are, but I used to sell tactical knives to guys on their way to war. A few would bring in things to show me that were definately not regulation. Some had rather awesome modern tomahawks and I sold my share of SOG's.

Neat idea, but not my bag so much.


I have a SOG seal pup elite as a permanent part of my kit. They are excellent knives, but I personally can't see the need for anything bigger than the pup. Happy
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Allen Andrews




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Dec, 2006 6:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bottom line for me is, I think swords are cool. I prefer the historical line, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate the TAC models that Mr Trim has developed. I also think a little fantasy is good for the soul.

Like Patrick, I was on a tactical team for many years. I always carried a fixed blade knife forged by William Dean Mitchell (mastersmith in the ABS) which I knew I could count on if all other options were exhausted. Never stabbed anybody, but I did use it a lot Happy

I used to do a fair amount of deep wilderness backpacking. My credo was always better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it. Then the trick becomes balancing preparedness with the reality of weight restraints.

Anyway, sorry to get off topic! I like the Atrim Tac swords waaaay better than a lot of the crap you see floating around out there. If I were in a combat unit that allowed me to carry one, and I didn't find the weight prohibitive, I might very well carry one of the short swords.
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Dec, 2006 8:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hm. I'm wondering if you could add a sword-bayonet (i.e. a particularly long bayonet) to the line? I must confess an inordinate fondness for them.
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P Ballou




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Dec, 2006 9:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some very interesting comments...

I am reminded of the gun safety class I took when I was a kid. They said that just the sound of cocking a pump action shotgun, even without a shell, is usually enough to scare off an intruder. Whipping out one of these tactical swords might have a similar effect, although if the intruder is armed with a gun, he'll probably fall over laughing.
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Bryce Felperin




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Dec, 2006 10:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Angus Trim wrote:
Bill Grandy wrote:
Gus said something on SFI that I think really hits the nail on the head for my feelings. Tactical swords in a way are sort of along the lines of fantasy swords. They're cool "what if" types of weapons, and if done right can be fully functional in a "what if" scenario. The majority of people who will buy one will likely not be in the military, or a body guard, or law enforcement. The majority of people will be guys like me who just like swords.

I doubt I'll ever buy a tactical longsword, but I must admit, I think it's cool in a way.


None of the first five buyers are in the military, or a body guard, or law enforcement...... None of those on the waiting lists are either.........

The thing is, these handle like the more "historical" swords do, have similar dynamics, but at least in the case of the tac longsword, cut better than the similar longsword...........really......

And I don't have an answer for it............{yet}........


Hmm, maybe I will be getting one of those soon.

Thanks Gus, this post and your previous one do put a further perspective on the use of these weapons.
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Bryce Felperin




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Dec, 2006 10:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

P Ballou wrote:
Some very interesting comments...

I am reminded of the gun safety class I took when I was a kid. They said that just the sound of cocking a pump action shotgun, even without a shell, is usually enough to scare off an intruder. Whipping out one of these tactical swords might have a similar effect, although if the intruder is armed with a gun, he'll probably fall over laughing.


A lot depends upon the tactical situation. I can see a need for something like a sword if you have a lot of corner hallways or the room distances are short.

Also if an intruder starts laughing, well then that's the time to strike - while he's distracted! Big Grin
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