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Justin Pasternak




Location: West Springfield, Massachusetts
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PostPosted: Fri 20 Oct, 2006 7:36 am    Post subject: The European Knight vs. The Japanese Samurai         Reply with quote

In a one-on-one fight Who would win the European Knight vs. the Japanese Samurai, both warriors would be from the 14th Century. Who would win the fight in hand-to-hand combat?
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George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
Joined: 16 May 2005

Posts: 614

PostPosted: Fri 20 Oct, 2006 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: The European Knight vs. The Japanese Samurai         Reply with quote

Justin Pasternak wrote:
In a one-on-one fight Who would win the European Knight vs. the Japanese Samurai, both warriors would be from the 14th Century. Who would win the fight in hand-to-hand combat?


NOT AGAIN! NOT AGAIN!!!! PLEASE NO NOT AGAIN!!!! Surprised Surprised Surprised

OK, OK, As always, the Knight would win, because he's just that cool. Wink


Do a search and you'll find this gone over several times.

Why is it always the Samurai? Isn't it time for a Knight Vs Kungfu master, or Knight vs Spartan?

Seriously, this is the most posted thread, even topping "which sword" at times.

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Mike Arledge




Location: Indianapolis, IN
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PostPosted: Fri 20 Oct, 2006 11:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

that's crazy talk, no one has ever posted something like that....



ummm


I mean, not since yesterday

Mike J Arledge

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 20 Oct, 2006 11:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually, it you guys will read the entire post, you'll see he's asking about hand-to-hand combat not general armed combat (which has been covered ad nauseum).
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ChadA

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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Fri 20 Oct, 2006 2:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Knight would have bigger thumbs, more reach, would dominate a thumb war.
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Sam Barris




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PostPosted: Fri 20 Oct, 2006 8:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd be willing to bet that the better fighter would win, if we facor out dumb luck. Who the better fighter might be would be determined by a dizzying array of factors including level of training, reflexes, athletic ability, conditioning, fighting style, weather, time of day, phase of the moon, etc. We're not dealing with video game enemies where every example of a type possesses the same abilities and number of hit points. These are human beings who have the same range of talents and liabilities that modern humans do. It is impossible to draw such general conclusions about such a large and diverse group.

And if you noticed the small degree of frusteration around here, just know that this question is brought up a lot. Wink

Pax,
Sam Barris

"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
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George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
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PostPosted: Fri 20 Oct, 2006 8:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe Fults wrote:
Knight would have bigger thumbs, more reach, would dominate a thumb war.


"But when the Samurai dropped his sword and said, "one... two....three.... four.... I-de-clare-a-thumb-war" The Knight KNEW he had him.

How do you say "I declare a thumb war" in Japanese?

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 20 Oct, 2006 9:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you guys insist on discussing this type of fantasy topic, I ask that you keep the tone and level of discussion up to the expectations of this site.

Thank you.

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Nick Trueman





Joined: 27 Mar 2006

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PostPosted: Sat 21 Oct, 2006 8:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey

The Russian in the T-34 tank would win?

N
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Torsten F.H. Wilke




Location: Irvine Spectrum, CA
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PostPosted: Sat 21 Oct, 2006 9:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan, maybe a new forum category could be created for the excessively fun, crazy/ridiculous, and nonsensical discussions brought up on occasion. A title like "Really Off-Topic Talk" or "Fantasy Forum" might describe that well. Or maybe not... Happy
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Allen G.





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PostPosted: Sat 21 Oct, 2006 9:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Assuming you don't mean hand to hand literally; You didnt say what armour theyre wearing, what weapon theyre using. Is the Samurai trying to cut through plate or heavy mail armour with a curved sword? If youre going to make this thread over and over on every history related forum I can think of at least be sepcific..

I don't carry any authority here or know the moderation policies but is there any chance of samurai VS "______" threads just being locked up? Theres 2 on the front page alone.. neither with any real answers. it really takes away from the clean, professional environment of this site.
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Sam Barris




Location: San Diego, California
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PostPosted: Sat 21 Oct, 2006 10:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I tend to agree. In most cases, the intellectual level of "Warrior X vs. Warrior Y" topics tends to fall in the vicinity of abysmal. They're fun to have sometimes, but little good ever comes of them. I've always enjoyed the more academic atmosphere found here. There is already a nice fantasy forum over at SFI, for those time you simply must discuss an aspect of Squall's gunblade or a Klingon bat'leth, so the inclusion of one here seems somewhat redundant.
Pax,
Sam Barris

"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 21 Oct, 2006 10:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't see a new forum being added for the purpose of these kind of threads.

Also, our policy is not to lock threads. This happens on other boards and often creates more problems than it solves. Generall, it's often preferable to trash a thread rather than lock it: if it has no value and has spiraled out of control, leaving it locked but visible serves no purpose. Will we begin to automatically trash threads of this nature? Not likely.

These threads can have some educational value to some people, but many jaded readers post unhelpful, snotty, and downright degrading messages in response since they are tired of these threads. Evidently, the poster of such threads is curious about these topics and obviously hasn't seen the myriad of other threads that are out there. There are things that can be learned from good responses to these threads, such as why it's nearly impossible to make valid, apples-to-apples comparisons of weapons, warriors, and fighting systems that developed in response to wildly different circumstances and materials.

If people would either a) take the time to respond helpfully and thoughtfully or would b) not post in them if they have nothing good to say, these threads would be less painful and more educational.

If you don't find these threads helpful or feel you can't post something of educational value in the tone we have tried very hard to maintain here, then stay out of them. Don't post a snide response or worthlessly facetious response simply because you are tired of these kinds of posts. Add something to a discussion, don't drag it down. If you can't do that, don't hit the reply button.

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Benjamin H. Abbott




Location: New Mexico
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PostPosted: Sat 21 Oct, 2006 5:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd stay the fight is close to dead even, though a very late 14th-century knight might have somewhat superior armor and polearm better at defeating armor. Even early 14th-century European armor covers the body more completely than Japanese armor, though. So, if they both used swords, I'd give a very slight edge to the European.
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Don Stanko




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PostPosted: Sat 21 Oct, 2006 8:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Justin, I believe your question has crossed the minds of many sword enthusiasts. Since the question started out a little vague, it ended up being almost impossible to answer. Maybe you could clarify a bit. Were you wondering which warrior received the greater amount of training in their lifetime? Or maybe which warrior was in the better overall physical condition? Or maybe which culture outfitted their soldiers with the best overall equipment? These questions may be equally as hard/impossible to answer but you might get more postings with solid educated guesses.

Hopefully this helps. Don
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sat 21 Oct, 2006 9:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Who would win is an impossible question to answer and any specific fight like this could end completely differently than any other subsequent fight. So, lets forget about " who would win ".

If a serious discussion is even possible it might be an abstract comparison of techniques: Say Samurai X uses a specific technique, what technique would the differently trained Knight use as a counter ? What techniques would be common and familiar to both and which would surprise the other ?

All this complicated by all the different combinations of styles both Western and Eastern that one could chose to pair up for comparison.

Equipment is also were comparisons can be made, but here too skill in use would be more critical than the details in a real life contest.

All the variable that would apply to a real fight that concern the individual quality of each fighter is just a distraction.

So I think a comparison of techniques might produce some interesting speculations or better simulations of how these would interact. I personally don't have the competence to come to any conclusions as I am not an expert in either Japanese or European swordsmanship.

So, I believe that a serious discussion about this sort of thing is possible it's just that most similar Topics degenerate into
unproductive my opinion is better than your opinion ......... and become obnoxious or boring !

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Sam Barris




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PostPosted: Sat 21 Oct, 2006 9:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Say Samurai X uses a specific technique...


Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu?

Sorry! *ducks* Razz

Pax,
Sam Barris

"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
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Katie Neal





Joined: 17 Jul 2006

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PostPosted: Sat 21 Oct, 2006 11:21 pm    Post subject: i like these things.         Reply with quote

Hi gents. i kinda like these decussions, allthough only hyperthetical, when taken seriously these threads have a great opitunity to compare armour and skill from different culture and pit them against another.

i think that a knight would win.

whether on horse back or foot.
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Torsten F.H. Wilke




Location: Irvine Spectrum, CA
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PostPosted: Sun 22 Oct, 2006 11:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey, why don't we try some generalizations? The European warrior will most likely have been larger and stronger than the Japanese warrior. That gives the Knight some advantage in the "brute" department. The European warrior's full plate armour would likely have presented the biggest problem in getting a strike through. I'm not trying to imply that the Japanese warrior's armour was any less worthy, just that a combination of coverage and fairly advanced metal working abilities most likely give the European armour an advantage in that department. Please remember that the full plate armour still had many fallable strike areas, especially those of movement. To successfuly render an incapacitating strike against a warrior in full plate, the opposing combatent would have to be extremely precise and quik. Herein lies the crux. Japanese martial training seems to have been very thorough, highly evolved, extremely precise, and a part of a much more encompassing life philosophy, much more so than the European martial training. That would probably give an advantage to the Samurai, under many fight situations. I believe, that it is at this point that the individual warrior's mental and physical capabilities would actually determine the effective outcome. You basically have razor-sharp skills vs. power& protection. That is tough to call... who would fall for what, first?


P.s. ; Didn't we all have to start learning from more knowledgable people at some point in time? I include myself in the learning group...
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Benjamin H. Abbott




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PostPosted: Mon 23 Oct, 2006 10:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Japanese martial training seems to have been very thorough, highly evolved, extremely precise, and a part of a much more encompassing life philosophy, much more so than the European martial training. That would probably give an advantage to the Samurai, under many fight situations.


I completely disagree. Both Samurai and knights trained rigorously in effective martial art systems. Giving either side any advantage in skill is misguided.
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