Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search


Please help our efforts with a donation. It's time to pay our annual server hosting bill. We've collected 1829.00 towards our goal of 2640 USD. View Goal Progress
Last 10 Donors: Alan Schiff, Horace C Squire, Ralph Grinly, Sĝren Niedziella, Gregg Sobocinski, Neil Eddiford, Antal László, Stefan Gruenewald, Chad Arnow, Adam Simmonds (View All Donors)

Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Help Me decide.....Please Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
Jared Binder




Location: Chelsea, Michigan
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sun 02 Jul, 2006 11:22 am    Post subject: Help Me decide.....Please         Reply with quote

O.K. fellow gladiophiles....

After saving for 2yrs. and drooling almost daily over the gorgeous stuff on the Albion website, I am finally ready to add one of Albion's fine NG swords to my collection. However I am really having trouble deciding which one I want to bring home first, and as it may be another 2yrs. before I can afford another I want to get it right, so opinions will be appreciated.

I am into the Roman period pretty heavily and also do not yet have a classic High Middle Ages sword in my collection (which currently consists of: Bugei PC "Wave" katana, A&A 3-ringed Italian rapier, and a ATrim short fantasy leafblade), so these are the candidates:

Albion NG Allectus
Albion NG Knight
Albion NG Squire

Since my last purchase was the ATrim short leafblade, I'm leaning heavily towards either the Knight or the Squire as not having a true Medieval sword in my collection yet is really starting to get to me.

I LOVE the blade geometry of the Squire... the reinforced point is sooo sexy, but the review of the Knight by Patrick Kelley is so glowing, the cross on the Knight is a bit more graceful than the Squire and the PoB of the Knight is a full inch or more closer in than the Squire.

Handling is perhaps the key deciding factor for me... I want something lively in the hand yet authoritative in the cut and able to deliver a nasty thrust. It really comes down to either the Knight or the Squire.

Any opinions to help me decide are Eek! greatly apprreciated.

Jared Binder
View user's profile Send private message
B. Stark
Industry Professional



Location: ORYGUN
Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Reading list: 11 books

Posts: 392

PostPosted: Sun 02 Jul, 2006 11:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmmm...Deciding between the Squire and the Knight. That's a tough nut there. IIRC, both are somewhat similiar in handling. The Squire definitley has more point oriented control and thrusting ability. The knight, obviously, has more authority in the cut. I personally prefer XIV and XVI's (both tweener types of more dedicated cutters and thrusters). More of a jack of all trades type swords compared to say XIII's and XV's. XII's seem to have this design aspect though more focused to cutting, more of a 30/70 aspect. While the XVI seems to be a straight 50/50, between cut and thrust.

As far as the hilts are concerned, the Squire may seem plainer than the faceted Knight but there is something to be said for the subtlety of the Squires thinner pommel. Aesthetics can be very subjective though. Between the two the Squire has a more modern fast paced look than the Knight, to me at least. Plus, don't forget the multiple risers on the Squire's grip. It's the only Albion sword with this feature. A very positive gripping feature.

Hope this contributes positively to your decision.

BS

"Wyrd bi∂ ful arĉd"

Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense?

Patrick Henry
View user's profile Send private message
Addison C. de Lisle




Location: South Carolina
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Likes: 27 pages

Posts: 614

PostPosted: Sun 02 Jul, 2006 11:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I like both the Squire and the Knight, but if I had to make a choice right now I'd go for the Knight...I think... Laughing Out Loud
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 3,792

PostPosted: Sun 02 Jul, 2006 11:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you ;want the classic Medieval sword, then get the Knight. If you do a search on this site, you will find that the consensus is that it is one of Albions most successful designs.

Last edited by Roger Hooper on Mon 03 Jul, 2006 11:21 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message
Craig Peters




PostPosted: Sun 02 Jul, 2006 11:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Knight is a better choice for a high medieval sword. But I'd also take a second look at the Ritter and some of the Type Xa swords like the Senlac. These are also high medieval weapons (assuming you include the 12th century as "high medieval) whereas a type XII like the Knight was more of a 13th century weapon.
View user's profile Send private message
Kenton Spaulding




Location: Connecticut
Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Reading list: 12 books

Posts: 285

PostPosted: Sun 02 Jul, 2006 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Help Me decide.....Please         Reply with quote

I don't think you can go wrong buddy, I think I prefer the Squire, but this might just be because as the Albion type XII's go I really love the Laird which takes my focus away from the Knight as a potential option for myself. I guess it comes down to if you want a little bit earlier or later sword, and also there is this:

Jared Binder wrote:
and able to deliver a nasty thrust.


I'll go againt the grain and say Squire!

Kenton

By the way, I envy your choice Big Grin
View user's profile Send private message
Jared Smith




Location: Tennessee
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,532

PostPosted: Sun 02 Jul, 2006 7:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can vouch for the Knight as being very satisfying to own and hold. It is sort of a hybrid design. You can probably pass it off as 13th or early 14th century. I have never held one of the Squires. I also am sort of wishing that I either had the Sovereign or Sheriff now to definately cover earlier periods.
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
View user's profile Send private message
Edward Hitchens




Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 9 books

Posts: 818

PostPosted: Sun 02 Jul, 2006 7:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've handled the Knight and Squire (though not with the two together) and I couldn't put down the Knight. Surprised

While both fit neatly within the Medieval era, I think the Knight encompasses the entire period better than the Squire; in other words, a Type XII could/would have been found from the time of the First Crusade (1099) up thru and including the start of the Hundred Years War (1337) give or take half-a-century or so. I would place the Type XVI Squire later in the period, perhaps inching into the Renaissance. But don't forget that Oakeshott's typology does not categorize the blades by date, but rather by design (I don't wanna get too carried away with that without going off the topic).

If it's the archetype of the Medieval sword you seek, look no further than the Knight although the Squire is not to be dismissed. Happy

"The whole art of government consists in the art of being honest." Thomas Jefferson
View user's profile Send private message
Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,417

PostPosted: Sun 02 Jul, 2006 8:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What Ed said! Big Grin
"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
View user's profile Send private message
Jeremy V. Krause




Location: Buffalo, NY.
Joined: 20 Oct 2003
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,493

PostPosted: Mon 03 Jul, 2006 10:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you are looking at the time period question I must say that a sword like the knight would not have been seen during the time of the first crusade. The earliest this type of blade should be dated is around 1250 and the Squire around 1300.

Another thing- the term "high" middle ages in most circles refers to the period 1050-1300 and coincides with the era of the height of organized feudalism and zenith of the Church's power. Around 1300 we see the beginning of the guild system and the emergence of the bougois class.

Jeremy
View user's profile Send private message
Edward Hitchens




Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 9 books

Posts: 818

PostPosted: Mon 03 Jul, 2006 11:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeremy V. Krause wrote:
the term "high" middle ages in most circles refers to the period 1050-1300 and coincides with the era of the height of organized feudalism and zenith of the Church's power.
Jeremy


That's a good point, and also an overlooked one. When most think of the "High" Middle Ages, we (myself included) tend to place our minds around the 14th century -- when the Renaissance is just around the corner. But many scholars agree that the Medieval period goes as far back as the 5th century, when Rome fell. So the "Low" Middle Ages would also have to include the fall of Rome, the Migration Era, and the Vikings (what modern pop culture terms as the 'Dark Ages').

OK, back to the original topic: Jared, I agree with Craig's and Kenton's thoughts on considering some of Albion's Type XI swords (particularly the Ritter) and their other Type XII, the Laird, which I have handled and I think is every bit as admirable as the Knight. You sure have good taste in swords, my friend! Cool

"The whole art of government consists in the art of being honest." Thomas Jefferson
View user's profile Send private message
Craig Peters




PostPosted: Mon 03 Jul, 2006 2:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeremy V. Krause wrote:
If you are looking at the time period question I must say that a sword like the knight would not have been seen during the time of the first crusade. The earliest this type of blade should be dated is around 1250 and the Squire around 1300.

Another thing- the term "high" middle ages in most circles refers to the period 1050-1300 and coincides with the era of the height of organized feudalism and zenith of the Church's power. Around 1300 we see the beginning of the guild system and the emergence of the bougois class.

Jeremy


Jeremy,

If you look at the article on Ewart Oakeshott and his typology, you'll notice that it mentions the typical time of general usage for type XII swords is from 1170 to 1350, so I disagree that 1250 is the oldest date for this type of sword. In fact, if you look at myArmoury's article on Type XII swords, the earliest surviving example of this type is ostensibly from the Viking era: http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_spotxii03.jpg
View user's profile Send private message
Craig Peters




PostPosted: Mon 03 Jul, 2006 2:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Also, though this is getting off topic, I tend to consider the high middle ages to be from sometime around 1100 to about 1300. The reason for this is that the 12th century is (obviously) the time when the twelfth century "renaissance", a time of cultural and educational flourishing, took place, and thus it seems more appropriate to place the end of the 11th century in the "early middle ages", with the twelfth century renaissance representing the early parts of the high middle ages.
View user's profile Send private message
Gordon Clark




Location: Purcellville, VA
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 501

PostPosted: Mon 03 Jul, 2006 4:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have not handled either, but I have a Laird that I really like, so I would vote Knight.
I don't think you can go wrong with the two though.

Good Luck!
Gordon
View user's profile Send private message
Steve Grisetti




Location: Orlando metro area, Florida, USA
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Likes: 7 pages
Reading list: 28 books

Posts: 1,809

PostPosted: Mon 03 Jul, 2006 4:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, bless you. I would find the choice between Knight and Squire very difficult. The Knight is better for the earlier part of the era in question, and I do prefer the cross to that of the Squire. However, I like the reinforced point on the Squire and the risers in its grip. What a quandry. I guess what makes the choice difficult is that they are both good choices. Good luck!
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
View user's profile Send private message
George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
Joined: 16 May 2005

Posts: 614

PostPosted: Mon 03 Jul, 2006 7:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Go with the Knight... Then there will be plenty of Squires left over for ME when I have money again.
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Jeremy V. Krause




Location: Buffalo, NY.
Joined: 20 Oct 2003
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,493

PostPosted: Tue 04 Jul, 2006 7:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Jeremy,

If you look at the article on Ewart Oakeshott and his typology, you'll notice that it mentions the typical time of general usage for type XII swords is from 1170 to 1350, so I disagree that 1250 is the oldest date for this type of sword. In fact, if you look at myArmoury's article on Type XII swords, the earliest surviving example of this type is ostensibly from the Viking era: http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_spotxii03.jpg


Thanks for reminding me of the earlier examples of type XII blades. Given this I still feel that the hilt of the knight should place it no earlier than 1250 plus if you look at the blade of the knight it looks to be more of a "tweener" between the type XIIs and type XIVs. It has a rather acute point section for the classic type XII as described by Oakeshott.

This being said I would also recommend the knight as a choice due to it's wonderful handling. Even though I am currently interested in slightly earlier type swords I must say that the Knight is probably the best handling sword I have held.

Thanks,
Jeremy
View user's profile Send private message
Jared Binder




Location: Chelsea, Michigan
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue 04 Jul, 2006 10:41 am    Post subject: Thanks for the opinions....         Reply with quote

Thanks for the informed opinions.... I have decided to go with the Squire and contacted Albion yesterday via e-mail. I guess what I am looking for was embodied in the Squire's blade geometry more than any other factor... This will also be my first sword with a fuller ( my A&A Italian Rapier has a tiny fuller, but it's so small and narrow it doesn't count) and I LOVE the grip on the Squire. I am also trying to put together a period costume (slowly as the good stuff is pricey) for the Hundred Years War period and am sure that the Squire is a better fit for this period, or at least the early years of this period. So, fuller, blade geometry, period fit and the fact that I wanted a one-hand 'working man's' sword, meant to be wielded on foot helped tip the balance for me. I have gone with the campaign worn light brown for the grip/scabbard/belt for an authentic man-at-arms feel. The other sword I love (perhaps for the latter part of the Hundred Years War) is the Kingmaker, which I can't wait to see finished. When I can next afford to buy a sword (probably in a couple more yrs. : ( )
I wish to make that sword mine... and would love to have that one with a fancy period scabbard to reflect its noble status.

I am sure the Knight is a fantastic weapon but for now the Squire is the sword for me.

Thanks again for all your help and the debate over the time frame for the Knight is fascinating. I would have to agree that the Knight's blade and guard would place it no earlier than 1250 and would likely have still been in service by the beginning of the Hundred Years War, but as we see in so many period paintings from the time the estoc and type XVI blades like the Squire must have been a foot soldier's weapon of choice for it's better armor piercing qualities. I think however that a mounted knight, who would almost always swing his sword from horseback rather than time an aimed blow at an exposed joint, would have preffered a stronger cutter like the Knight when mounted. Just a thought.

Jared Binder
View user's profile Send private message
Steve Grisetti




Location: Orlando metro area, Florida, USA
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Likes: 7 pages
Reading list: 28 books

Posts: 1,809

PostPosted: Tue 04 Jul, 2006 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Thanks for the opinions....         Reply with quote

Jared Binder wrote:
Thanks for the informed opinions.... I have decided to go with the Squire ....
Congratulations on an excellent choice. (Of course, I would have said that for the Knight, too! Laughing Out Loud ) Now you just have the exquisite, anxious anticipation in waiting for the white box.
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
View user's profile Send private message
Felix Wang




Location: Fresno, CA
Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Reading list: 17 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 394

PostPosted: Tue 04 Jul, 2006 2:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For a HYW outfit, the type XIV is definitely the preferable choice; if your interest was the Crusades, the Knight would be the way to go.
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Help Me decide.....Please
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum