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Wilhelm Toohey





Joined: 12 May 2006

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Fri 12 May, 2006 2:26 pm    Post subject: Molecular struchers of blades         Reply with quote

Hello
Id like to know, if anyone knows, the molecular structure of various types of blades, 420, 440, high carbon, low carbon, spring steel, living steel, heat treated, hand made and factory made, any info helps.
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional



Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 16 pages
Reading list: 20 books

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PostPosted: Fri 12 May, 2006 3:22 pm    Post subject: Big Topic         Reply with quote

Hello Wilhelm

That is a pretty big topic worth a couple of PHDs worth of info to describe accurately in detail. The list of materials you give actually have a few things that overlap and there realy is no material that is identified as "living steel". In the very basic of terms you have carbon steel that when heat treated( I am assuming you are talking finished blades here) you will get different formations of molecular structure, dependent on many factors in the process and the alloys present. If you have a specific point of focus you are after we can probably give you a much better idea of what you are looking for and where to find the right answer.

Best Craig
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Wilhelm Toohey





Joined: 12 May 2006

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Fri 12 May, 2006 7:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Im speaking like before and after, does the structure condense expand, change in any way, um im trying to pin point it as much as i can, like do higher tempratures and lower freezing cooling temperatures have great effects, i dunno, ill try to come up with better questions later, thanks
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Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,453

PostPosted: Fri 12 May, 2006 8:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wilhelm,

It sounds to me like you really want to ask about the benefits of a specific firm's advertised heat treat, especially since you reference one of their well known legacy brand names directly in your post. Since you are asking here, instead of approaching the firm directly with your question, I assume you are interested in vetting some information you have already gathered. If that is the case, I suspect you will get a better response by posing your question directly, rather than eluding to it.

If I have misunderstood your intent in posting, please accept my sincere apology in advance.

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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Wilhelm Toohey





Joined: 12 May 2006

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Fri 12 May, 2006 11:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It was not my intention to do so, while i do know the proces of one company, but i have no info of the structure from them, i want to know if anyone knows like the first styles of it, historicaly speaking, or if any other companys do hardening proceses once a blade is partially "complete", im not tring to be a smart a** or promote any particular company, im just trying to get info for a project im doing in class. I want to know about all heat treats, of more than one companys. how swords change when this hapen, or just as "simple" as how does steel change when being crafted and shaped, how a springy type steel such as for stage use, differs from a sword meant to kill/maime/etc.
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Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,453

PostPosted: Sat 13 May, 2006 1:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wilhelm,

I did not think you were being a "smart a**" as you put it, and I am certainly not worried about anybody promoting a company, after all I am just a visitor here like you. However your posts, at least your initial post, is pretty hard to decipher. At least it was hard for me to decipher. Hopefully some people with meaningful knowledge and expereince can make more of it than I.

I'm afraid I don't have the knowledge to help you directly either but I did some searching and will link to some older threads here that I think you might be able to mine for some relevant information (I searched on heat treatment). I will not link to other forums, but there is more out there if you are willing to explore and search. Somewhat to my surprise I could find no essays that dealt with these topics here.

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...+treatment
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...+treatment
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...+treatment
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...+treatment

Good luck and good hunting.

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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Shane Allee
Industry Professional



Location: South Bend, IN
Joined: 29 Aug 2003

Posts: 506

PostPosted: Sat 13 May, 2006 6:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is a very huge topic, but here are some more links to help you out.

http://www.dfoggknives.com/

http://www.cashenblades.com/Info/Info.html

http://www.knives.com/engnath.html

Shane
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Wilhelm Toohey





Joined: 12 May 2006

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sat 13 May, 2006 11:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

thank you both greatly, most likely these will prove most informal
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Kjell Magnusson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 10 Jun 2004

Posts: 123

PostPosted: Sun 14 May, 2006 4:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I seem to recall this article being a pretty good starting point: http://swordforum.com/metallurgy/ites.html

The crystalline arrangements mentioned in that article (the atoms in metals are, strictly speaking, not arranged in molecules at all) would most likely be what you're going to find in pretty much any "usable" sword blade (some stainless steels might have other forms, but then we're most likely well into wallhanger territory).

Now, if there's any somewhat specific questions beyond this (and the info others have posted), then I might be able to provide some info, or at least somewhat educated guesses, but as originally posted I'm afraid that it'd take a decent sized textbook to give a decent answer.

Good luck.
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Jeff Pringle
Industry Professional



Location: Oakland, CA
Joined: 19 Nov 2005

Posts: 145

PostPosted: Sun 14 May, 2006 8:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Speaking of textbooks, Verhoeven's 'Metallurgy for Bladesmiths' is a really great introduction to the subject, boiled down to the essentials it's still 200 pages, but very well written and quite understandable to the non-scientist (or at least this non-scientist Happy )
Best of all, he put it up on the web -
http://mse.iastate.edu/files/verhoeven/7-5.pdf
Lots of info on the molecules in there.
Laughing Out Loud
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Wilhelm Toohey





Joined: 12 May 2006

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sun 14 May, 2006 11:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

ah haha! yes im sure these will be more than enough, but incase, i would like to leave thisforim open in case i have any other thoughts, ill try to make themmore specific, and thanks for al of it
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