Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Dating of the helmet. Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Michal Plezia
Industry Professional



Location: Poland
Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Likes: 2 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 585

PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 8:34 am    Post subject: Dating of the helmet.         Reply with quote

Hi!
This is my first post so forgive me any mistakes and bad english Worried

I need Yours opinion about dating of the helmet classified as Italian basinet.Do you have any other pictures of this type?



 Attachment: 58.26 KB
basinet wloski.jpg

View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Greyson Brown




Location: Windsor, Colorado
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Posts: 790

PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 9:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michal,

A picture of a very similar bascinet was posted in this thread. It may actually be the same bascinet. We never really decided what it is (neither Alexi or I think it is really a bascinet) or what time period it belonged to. I don't really buy the 14th century claim that was put forth in that thread, but I'm not an expert, either.

Sorry that I couldn't be more help.

-Grey

By the way, welcome to myArmoury.com. I hope you enjoy it as much as the rest of us!

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
View user's profile Send private message
Elling Polden




Location: Bergen, Norway
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,576

PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 9:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What it looks like to me, is someone going to a armourers workshop, takes a look at a pig face bacinet and a Sallet, scratches his head, and says: "Can I have that one with that visor, because that pointy bit looks a bit, well, silly?"

Hell, It's what I would have done... Razz

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,131

PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 9:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It could be some form of great bascinet. I swear I've seen something similar, at least in period artwork. I'll look around and see if I can find anything.

I think this is the same one from the thread Greyson linked to:



If it's the top one, then it looks like a visored barbute or something. Strange.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Michal Plezia
Industry Professional



Location: Poland
Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Likes: 2 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 585

PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 11:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
If it's the top one, then it looks like a visored barbute or something. Strange.
[/list]


This helm is not e barbute for me-it has different shape of the top of the bell.Only the the face part is barbute-like.

Thanks for reply. Wink So you think that it is 14th century helmet?I was thinking about 1420-1430 period....


Last edited by Michal Plezia on Tue 20 Dec, 2005 11:10 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 11:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The caption says 15th century. Why is that thought to be wrong?
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,131

PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 11:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michal Plezia wrote:
This helm is not e barbute for me-it has different shape of the top of the bell.Only the the face part is barbute-like.

Thanks for reply. Wink So you think that it is 14th century helmet?I was thinking about 1420-1430 period....


No, I didn't say it was 14th century. Happy If it is, it'd be very, very late. I'd say early 15th. It is more pointed than a typical barbute. My guess is that if falls somewhere in between in between a (great) bascinet and a barbute. It wouldn't be the first helm from the Middle Ages to defy classification. Happy

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Michal Plezia
Industry Professional



Location: Poland
Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Likes: 2 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 585

PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 11:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes 15th century.But which decade?1400-20 or 1420-50?
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 11:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a helm that is not the same, but might share some of the same characteristics. It's of Venetian-style, early 15th century. It is said to derive from the barbuta but closed like the elmetto. It was discovered in the Greek castle of Chalcis and bears the marks P and N, made by two craftsmen, probably from Milan.


 Attachment: 52.24 KB
venetianhelm.jpg
Venetian-style Helmet -- early 15th century
Museo Civico L. Marzoli, Brescia, Italy


.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,131

PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 11:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michal Plezia wrote:
Yes 15th century.But which decade?1400-20 or 1420-50?


Without seeing more documentation, I'm not sure.

This helm has been discussed in this thread: http://www.wolfeargent.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb...p;t=000183

A gentleman there said this:

Quote:
Firstly, (ignoring the pointed bowl, which is in the same family as the St. Mary Chapel sallet in Coventry) the form of the skull bulge and tail, which do not occur in a 14th century context. Secondly, the shape neither allows for the ubiquitous camail and verveles of a 14th century bascinet, nor does it have mounting points for such. Thirdly, 14th century bascinets do not normally have rolled edges, and this clearly does. Fourthly, barbutes of 'corinthian' form all consistantly date between 1440 - 1460, Fithly, it is attributed to Missaglia - even if the mark is a historic forgery (as was occassionaly done to pieces to sell them for more value - sallets with 'a touch of Meylan' were regularly listed as being of more intrinsic worth in English inventories), it is a mark that did not exist until the 15th century. Sixthly, the visor is clearly of a 'frogface' form, which did not develop until the mid 15th century in a lifting visor.

It makes a very strong case all together for dating the piece in a mid 15th century context, assuming it is genuine. (the more I look at it closely, the more inclined I am to think it is, albeit unique).


Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,131

PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 12:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Here is a helm that is not the same, but might share some of the same characteristics. It's of Venetian-style, early 15th century. It is said to derive from the barbuta but closed like the elmetto. It was discovered in the Greek castle of Chalcis and bears the marks P and N, made by two craftsmen, probably from Milan.


Nathan,
This is a fascinating specimen. It looks like it has the vestiges (a domed rivet and a hole) of a center pivot/hinge of some kind. It also uses kind of proto-armet construction, with the hinges at the cheeks and what appears to be a stud closure at the chin.

Weird, but cool.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional



Location: upstate NY
Joined: 10 Nov 2005

Posts: 523

PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 12:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The general form of this helm(et) was around as early as the mid 14th c., though the early ones often had verveilles. The form persisted past 1430. What is unusual about this helm is the face opening. When I saw it, the visor had been removed, and there has been a lot of debate as to the visor's authenticity. Here is another photo.


 Attachment: 55.96 KB
[ Download ]

jamesarlen.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Chuck Russell




Location: WV
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Reading list: 46 books

Posts: 936

PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 5:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

ya i think this helm got mixed and matched during the 19thc for a "cool" helmet. a 14thc visor with a 15th helm and a neato design
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,148

PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 6:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The visor sort of reminds me of the front lower part of a Frog Mouth Great Helm: Don't know if this helps much.

Looks like a Bascinet with a lot of Barbute mixed in.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,886

PostPosted: Wed 21 Dec, 2005 7:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For what it's worth, this figure is from a woodcut by Albrecht Dürer, dated 1510 by the artist. At least one similar helmet appears elsewhere in his woodcuts, but it has snouted visor.


 Attachment: 110.59 KB
helmet.jpg


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Dating of the helmet.
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum