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Michal Plezia
Industry Professional
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 Posted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 8:34 am Post subject: Dating of the helmet. |
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Hi!
This is my first post so forgive me any mistakes and bad english 
I need Yours opinion about dating of the helmet classified as Italian basinet.Do you have any other pictures of this type?
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Greyson Brown
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| Posted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Michal,
A picture of a very similar bascinet was posted in this thread. It may actually be the same bascinet. We never really decided what it is (neither Alexi or I think it is really a bascinet) or what time period it belonged to. I don't really buy the 14th century claim that was put forth in that thread, but I'm not an expert, either.
Sorry that I couldn't be more help.
-Grey
By the way, welcome to myArmoury.com. I hope you enjoy it as much as the rest of us!
"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 9:52 am Post subject: |
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What it looks like to me, is someone going to a armourers workshop, takes a look at a pig face bacinet and a Sallet, scratches his head, and says: "Can I have that one with that visor, because that pointy bit looks a bit, well, silly?"
Hell, It's what I would have done... 
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 9:56 am Post subject: |
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It could be some form of great bascinet. I swear I've seen something similar, at least in period artwork. I'll look around and see if I can find anything.
I think this is the same one from the thread Greyson linked to:
If it's the top one, then it looks like a visored barbute or something. Strange.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Michal Plezia
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | If it's the top one, then it looks like a visored barbute or something. Strange.
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[/list]
This helm is not e barbute for me-it has different shape of the top of the bell.Only the the face part is barbute-like.
Thanks for reply.  So you think that it is 14th century helmet?I was thinking about 1420-1430 period....
Last edited by Michal Plezia on Tue 20 Dec, 2005 11:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| Michal Plezia wrote: | This helm is not e barbute for me-it has different shape of the top of the bell.Only the the face part is barbute-like.
Thanks for reply. So you think that it is 14th century helmet?I was thinking about 1420-1430 period.... |
No, I didn't say it was 14th century. If it is, it'd be very, very late. I'd say early 15th. It is more pointed than a typical barbute. My guess is that if falls somewhere in between in between a (great) bascinet and a barbute. It wouldn't be the first helm from the Middle Ages to defy classification.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Michal Plezia
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 11:18 am Post subject: |
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Yes 15th century.But which decade?1400-20 or 1420-50?
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 11:19 am Post subject: |
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Here is a helm that is not the same, but might share some of the same characteristics. It's of Venetian-style, early 15th century. It is said to derive from the barbuta but closed like the elmetto. It was discovered in the Greek castle of Chalcis and bears the marks P and N, made by two craftsmen, probably from Milan.
Attachment: 52.24 KB
Venetian-style Helmet -- early 15th century
Museo Civico L. Marzoli, Brescia, Italy
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| Michal Plezia wrote: | | Yes 15th century.But which decade?1400-20 or 1420-50? |
Without seeing more documentation, I'm not sure.
This helm has been discussed in this thread: http://www.wolfeargent.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb...p;t=000183
A gentleman there said this:
| Quote: | Firstly, (ignoring the pointed bowl, which is in the same family as the St. Mary Chapel sallet in Coventry) the form of the skull bulge and tail, which do not occur in a 14th century context. Secondly, the shape neither allows for the ubiquitous camail and verveles of a 14th century bascinet, nor does it have mounting points for such. Thirdly, 14th century bascinets do not normally have rolled edges, and this clearly does. Fourthly, barbutes of 'corinthian' form all consistantly date between 1440 - 1460, Fithly, it is attributed to Missaglia - even if the mark is a historic forgery (as was occassionaly done to pieces to sell them for more value - sallets with 'a touch of Meylan' were regularly listed as being of more intrinsic worth in English inventories), it is a mark that did not exist until the 15th century. Sixthly, the visor is clearly of a 'frogface' form, which did not develop until the mid 15th century in a lifting visor.
It makes a very strong case all together for dating the piece in a mid 15th century context, assuming it is genuine. (the more I look at it closely, the more inclined I am to think it is, albeit unique).
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ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | Here is a helm that is not the same, but might share some of the same characteristics. It's of Venetian-style, early 15th century. It is said to derive from the barbuta but closed like the elmetto. It was discovered in the Greek castle of Chalcis and bears the marks P and N, made by two craftsmen, probably from Milan. |
Nathan,
This is a fascinating specimen. It looks like it has the vestiges (a domed rivet and a hole) of a center pivot/hinge of some kind. It also uses kind of proto-armet construction, with the hinges at the cheeks and what appears to be a stud closure at the chin.
Weird, but cool.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional
Location: upstate NY Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 587
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| Posted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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The general form of this helm(et) was around as early as the mid 14th c., though the early ones often had verveilles. The form persisted past 1430. What is unusual about this helm is the face opening. When I saw it, the visor had been removed, and there has been a lot of debate as to the visor's authenticity. Here is another photo.
Attachment: 55.96 KB
[ Download ]
jamesarlen.com
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Chuck Russell
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| Posted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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ya i think this helm got mixed and matched during the 19thc for a "cool" helmet. a 14thc visor with a 15th helm and a neato design
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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The visor sort of reminds me of the front lower part of a Frog Mouth Great Helm: Don't know if this helps much.
Looks like a Bascinet with a lot of Barbute mixed in.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Sean Flynt
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