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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 4:35 pm    Post subject: "Jackchains"         Reply with quote

Jakob ElbŠk E. Pedersen recently posted about "jackchains" and showed this photo:



These are very interesting.

What can you tell me about this? I don't know anything "jackchains" and can't remember ever reading about them.

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Addison C. de Lisle




Location: South Carolina
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 4:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, never seen or heard of those before either. They also don't look like they do much in the way of protection. Maybe they're for keeping your arm steady when lancing or something.
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 4:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've never seen anything like that either. I'd like to hear more about it.
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 4:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

When you see refferences to "splints" in period inventories of people stuff when they die or the like its usually these. Based on the frequency with which i've seen the mentioned they must have been pretty common in the 15th century. If you look at 15th century artwork with scenes of battles of seiges you can usually find one or two guys with these on thier arms.
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Chuck Russell




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 5:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

15thc art work shows them laced down the arms of a jack. unfortunitely my jack doesnt have arms or i'd have a pair. really neat stuff
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 5:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Can you direct me to some of this period artwork? If you can't post it, I'll take references and look 'em up myself. You're right, this is fascinating stuff.
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Jakob ElbŠk E. Pedersen




Location: Brabrand, Denmark
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 5:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A soldier wearing a tight padded jack with jack-chains can be seen on the Reliquary of St. Ursula by Hans Memling; http://www.wga.hu/art/m/memling/4ursula/36ursu06.jpg c. 1489.

For more info see,
Medieval Military Costume - Recreated in Colour Photographs by Gerry Embleton, p. 64-65.

As far as I am concerned no original examples of jack-chains exist today. But there may have been found fragments, which has not yet been recognised as such.


/Jakob

Quia Possum
(Because I can)


Last edited by Jakob ElbŠk E. Pedersen on Tue 13 Dec, 2005 5:41 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 5:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is the purpose to provide some form of added protection? How effective is this?

I'd like to know more.

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Jakob ElbŠk E. Pedersen




Location: Brabrand, Denmark
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 5:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As to protection, simple as they are, jack-chains multiplies the protective value of a padded jack several times. They are quite effective at keeping cuts and blows from cutting into the jack, but they give absolutely no protection against plunges. I personally view jack-chains in the same light as the plackart. Neither a plackart or a pair of jack-chains gives nearly the same protection as a full breast-plate or a full set of arms with spaulders, but they give some protection, and are simpler and cheaper to make.


/Jakob

Quia Possum
(Because I can)
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 5:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jakob ElbŠk E. Pedersen wrote:
A soldier wearing a tight padded jack with jack-chains can be seen on the Reliquary of St. Ursula by Hans Memling

I've seen this many times and yet have missed that detail. Thank you so much, Jakob!

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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 6:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The author of Osprey's Border Reivers book writes:

"Many Borderers wore chains of brass or pewter 'drawn four or five times along the thighs of their hosen and doublet sleeves [against] cutting'".

I never fully understood this, but I was picturing common chains. The kind shown here make much more sense as a defense. Either way, this helps me wrap up that particular mystery. Cool

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 7:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i guess these chains are sort of like playing the odds that if they are where 80% of where cuts would usually land on an unprotected arm, they give you some protection for very little weight or cost and force someone trying to cut you to aim for that 20% that is not as likely to be hit unless one is specifically aiming for: Just a theory ???

If they aim for your arm in the usual way the chain stops the cut and if they have to make a special effort to aim where the chain isn't, you slow them down, make the job more difficult and they might even miss a more difficult target.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!


Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Tue 13 Dec, 2005 9:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 7:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
...Just a theory ???...

Sounds like a good theory. Also sounds like the Pareto Principle (aka 80:20 rule) has actually been around for a long time!

"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 8:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Think of these as the nasal on a helmet wheather Norman conicle or 17th century Zischagge. When a slashing blow aimed at the area comes in its most likely going to hit steel/iron and as a cut draws across a surface it will travel across this "uncutable" surface instead of flesh,fabric what have you. Jean's 80/20 annolgy is a pretty good one.
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 9:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Are there any surviving examples of these other than fragments and period artwork?
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 9:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan;

Sort of the same principle as your ringmaille coat ( All talk about historical authenticity aside. Razz )

The point of the rings is that although a lucky cut might miss the rings or any of the rivets holding everything together the odds are high that some metal part will ruin a cut.

If I was going to redesign it I might add washers about the size of a quarter for those decorative rivets in between the ones holding the straps that keep the ring in place: The rivets that are now stand alone could hold those quarter size washers.

I would do this because just a little bit extra metal in the pattern would give that 80% odds coverage instead of the 60% coverage I guesstimate.

I know the evidence for these ringmaille coats is completely lacking in the European context ( No surviving examples or unambiguous artwork showing ringmaille.)

As with THIS subject " jackchains " the use of chains in a loose pattern or rings or small plates seems so easy, so economical, so obvious ....... That I tend to consider the possibility that some forms of " ringmaille " may have been used: Just seems odd that a good idea wouldn't be used !?

Not a good enough argument for living history use or any form of proof but more than O.K. for credible fantasy armour if well designed.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Joshua Reptsik




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 10:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These guys sell 'um. Looks like they're made by Grybol Blacksmith. Doesn't ring any bells for me. Good pic though.

http://www.matuls.pl/english/

They are listed under "Armours".

" You little fool who wanted to be the best, see what happened." -MS 3227a
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Wolfgang Armbruster





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PostPosted: Wed 14 Dec, 2005 5:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's exactly why I like myArmoury so much Happy
No matter how many times you visit the forums, you will always learn something new!
Never heard of Jackchains before, but they look great. Cheap yet very effective!

Thank you so much for the infos Happy
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Ryan A. C.





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PostPosted: Wed 14 Dec, 2005 1:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can't remember where I found this but I had the pic saved... I imagine they were used quite often by professional soldiers without the deep pockets of the better off. I wonder why I haven't noticed them in more artwork...


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jack chains.jpg

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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Wed 14 Dec, 2005 2:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've seen that pic in one of the "Eyewitness" childerens books. I think its "Medieval Life".
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