Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > "Jackchains" Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next 
Author Message
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 4:35 pm    Post subject: "Jackchains"         Reply with quote

Jakob Elbęk E. Pedersen recently posted about "jackchains" and showed this photo:



These are very interesting.

What can you tell me about this? I don't know anything "jackchains" and can't remember ever reading about them.

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Addison C. de Lisle




Location: South Carolina
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Likes: 27 pages

Posts: 614

PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 4:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, never seen or heard of those before either. They also don't look like they do much in the way of protection. Maybe they're for keeping your arm steady when lancing or something.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 5,739

PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 4:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've never seen anything like that either. I'd like to hear more about it.
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional



Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,563

PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 4:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

When you see refferences to "splints" in period inventories of people stuff when they die or the like its usually these. Based on the frequency with which i've seen the mentioned they must have been pretty common in the 15th century. If you look at 15th century artwork with scenes of battles of seiges you can usually find one or two guys with these on thier arms.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Chuck Russell




Location: WV
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Reading list: 46 books

Posts: 936

PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 5:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

15thc art work shows them laced down the arms of a jack. unfortunitely my jack doesnt have arms or i'd have a pair. really neat stuff
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 5:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Can you direct me to some of this period artwork? If you can't post it, I'll take references and look 'em up myself. You're right, this is fascinating stuff.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Jakob Elbęk E. Pedersen




Location: Brabrand, Denmark
Joined: 21 Dec 2004

Posts: 41

PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 5:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A soldier wearing a tight padded jack with jack-chains can be seen on the Reliquary of St. Ursula by Hans Memling; http://www.wga.hu/art/m/memling/4ursula/36ursu06.jpg c. 1489.

For more info see,
Medieval Military Costume - Recreated in Colour Photographs by Gerry Embleton, p. 64-65.

As far as I am concerned no original examples of jack-chains exist today. But there may have been found fragments, which has not yet been recognised as such.


/Jakob

Quia Possum
(Because I can)


Last edited by Jakob Elbęk E. Pedersen on Tue 13 Dec, 2005 5:41 pm; edited 3 times in total
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 5:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is the purpose to provide some form of added protection? How effective is this?

I'd like to know more.

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Jakob Elbęk E. Pedersen




Location: Brabrand, Denmark
Joined: 21 Dec 2004

Posts: 41

PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 5:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As to protection, simple as they are, jack-chains multiplies the protective value of a padded jack several times. They are quite effective at keeping cuts and blows from cutting into the jack, but they give absolutely no protection against plunges. I personally view jack-chains in the same light as the plackart. Neither a plackart or a pair of jack-chains gives nearly the same protection as a full breast-plate or a full set of arms with spaulders, but they give some protection, and are simpler and cheaper to make.


/Jakob

Quia Possum
(Because I can)
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 5:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jakob Elbęk E. Pedersen wrote:
A soldier wearing a tight padded jack with jack-chains can be seen on the Reliquary of St. Ursula by Hans Memling

I've seen this many times and yet have missed that detail. Thank you so much, Jakob!

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Sean Flynt




Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,981

PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 6:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The author of Osprey's Border Reivers book writes:

"Many Borderers wore chains of brass or pewter 'drawn four or five times along the thighs of their hosen and doublet sleeves [against] cutting'".

I never fully understood this, but I was picturing common chains. The kind shown here make much more sense as a defense. Either way, this helps me wrap up that particular mystery. Cool

-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,310

PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 7:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i guess these chains are sort of like playing the odds that if they are where 80% of where cuts would usually land on an unprotected arm, they give you some protection for very little weight or cost and force someone trying to cut you to aim for that 20% that is not as likely to be hit unless one is specifically aiming for: Just a theory ???

If they aim for your arm in the usual way the chain stops the cut and if they have to make a special effort to aim where the chain isn't, you slow them down, make the job more difficult and they might even miss a more difficult target.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!


Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Tue 13 Dec, 2005 9:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message
Steve Grisetti




Location: Orlando metro area, Florida, USA
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Likes: 9 pages
Reading list: 28 books

Posts: 1,812

PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 7:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
...Just a theory ???...

Sounds like a good theory. Also sounds like the Pareto Principle (aka 80:20 rule) has actually been around for a long time!

"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
View user's profile Send private message
Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional



Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,563

PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 8:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Think of these as the nasal on a helmet wheather Norman conicle or 17th century Zischagge. When a slashing blow aimed at the area comes in its most likely going to hit steel/iron and as a cut draws across a surface it will travel across this "uncutable" surface instead of flesh,fabric what have you. Jean's 80/20 annolgy is a pretty good one.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 5,739

PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 9:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Are there any surviving examples of these other than fragments and period artwork?
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,310

PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 9:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan;

Sort of the same principle as your ringmaille coat ( All talk about historical authenticity aside. Razz )

The point of the rings is that although a lucky cut might miss the rings or any of the rivets holding everything together the odds are high that some metal part will ruin a cut.

If I was going to redesign it I might add washers about the size of a quarter for those decorative rivets in between the ones holding the straps that keep the ring in place: The rivets that are now stand alone could hold those quarter size washers.

I would do this because just a little bit extra metal in the pattern would give that 80% odds coverage instead of the 60% coverage I guesstimate.

I know the evidence for these ringmaille coats is completely lacking in the European context ( No surviving examples or unambiguous artwork showing ringmaille.)

As with THIS subject " jackchains " the use of chains in a loose pattern or rings or small plates seems so easy, so economical, so obvious ....... That I tend to consider the possibility that some forms of " ringmaille " may have been used: Just seems odd that a good idea wouldn't be used !?

Not a good enough argument for living history use or any form of proof but more than O.K. for credible fantasy armour if well designed.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Joshua Reptsik




Location: Berlin, Maryland
Joined: 28 Aug 2004
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 34

PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 10:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These guys sell 'um. Looks like they're made by Grybol Blacksmith. Doesn't ring any bells for me. Good pic though.

http://www.matuls.pl/english/

They are listed under "Armours".

" You little fool who wanted to be the best, see what happened." -MS 3227a
View user's profile Send private message
Wolfgang Armbruster





Joined: 03 Apr 2005

Posts: 322

PostPosted: Wed 14 Dec, 2005 5:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's exactly why I like myArmoury so much Happy
No matter how many times you visit the forums, you will always learn something new!
Never heard of Jackchains before, but they look great. Cheap yet very effective!

Thank you so much for the infos Happy
View user's profile Send private message
Ryan A. C.





Joined: 22 Mar 2004
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 147

PostPosted: Wed 14 Dec, 2005 1:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can't remember where I found this but I had the pic saved... I imagine they were used quite often by professional soldiers without the deep pockets of the better off. I wonder why I haven't noticed them in more artwork...


 Attachment: 36.21 KB
jack chains.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional



Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,563

PostPosted: Wed 14 Dec, 2005 2:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've seen that pic in one of the "Eyewitness" childerens books. I think its "Medieval Life".
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > "Jackchains"
Page 1 of 3 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum