Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Horn or Wood crossbow? Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Ryan S.




Location: Germany
Joined: 04 May 2012

Posts: 391

PostPosted: Mon 02 Jan, 2023 5:05 am    Post subject: Horn or Wood crossbow?         Reply with quote

Mike Loades believes the following picture depicts a yew crossbow, because yew has knots. However, I think it is a horn bow, because it reminds me of how horns (such as ibex horns) are depicted in heraldry. What is your opinion?


Ibex horn:
View user's profile Send private message
Anthony Clipsom




Location: YORKSHIRE, UK
Joined: 27 Jul 2009

Posts: 341

PostPosted: Mon 02 Jan, 2023 11:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It depends in part on how to scale the drawing is. The impression is the arms are over a metre, maybe 1.5m. I'm not too knowledgeable about Ibex, but I don't think their horns are that big.
Anthony Clipsom
View user's profile Send private message
Ryan S.




Location: Germany
Joined: 04 May 2012

Posts: 391

PostPosted: Tue 03 Jan, 2023 7:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anthony Clipsom wrote:
It depends in part on how to scale the drawing is. The impression is the arms are over a metre, maybe 1.5m. I'm not too knowledgeable about Ibex, but I don't think their horns are that big.


I want to say that there are some extant giant horn crossbows that are about 3 meters. They aren't made from a single piece of horn. In fact, I don’t think any crossbow is made from a single piece of horn, or two horns put together. Rather, the image is meant to be symbolic and an artistic convention, at least I think so. Similar to how squirrel fur or ermine lining was depicted. Loades gave the impression that the only evidence for giant wood crossbows was this picture.
View user's profile Send private message
Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posts: 891

PostPosted: Tue 03 Jan, 2023 9:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Have you checked the book Springalds and Great Crossbows? It has lots of documents on big crossbows like this, and Loades might have overlooked it because he is more a 'making and experiencing' person than a 'deep dives in archives' person. A document which says "a great crossbow of yew and two petriers" is easier to interpret than a painting.

weekly writing
~ material culture
View user's profile Send private message
T. Kew




Location: London, UK
Joined: 21 Apr 2012

Posts: 256

PostPosted: Tue 03 Jan, 2023 12:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ryan S. wrote:
Rather, the image is meant to be symbolic and an artistic convention, at least I think so. Similar to how squirrel fur or ermine lining was depicted.


In which case, I think an obvious question would be "do other crossbows in art show this same convention regularly?" I can't recall seeing it much offhand, and we know lots of crossbows were made from horn (as a composite with other materials), so I'm skeptical at treating it as an artistic convention for 'crossbow made from horn' without some further backing for the existence of that convention.

HEMA fencer and coach, New Cross Historical Fencing
View user's profile Send private message
Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posts: 891

PostPosted: Tue 03 Jan, 2023 7:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Although that just raises the question "if its meant to show knobby yew, why isn't that convention more commonn?" Both the yew theory and the horn theory seem plausible ways of interpreting the art which is why I recommend looking at what the texts say.

weekly writing
~ material culture
View user's profile Send private message
Anthony Clipsom




Location: YORKSHIRE, UK
Joined: 27 Jul 2009

Posts: 341

PostPosted: Wed 04 Jan, 2023 1:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Mike Loades believes the following picture depicts a yew crossbow, because yew has knots.


Just to be clear, having checked back in Loades' book, what he actually says is that the knobbly effect indicates the lath is made of wood. He doesn't specify yew nor attribute the knobbliness to knots. What exactly is indicated by the lumpy nature is less than clear because it is pretty rare to show bows and crossbows this way. The idea it represents Ibex horn in a abstract way is possible but it may just indicate that the weapon was roughly finished or, as Loades interprets, it contrasts the smooth finished appearance of a composite weapon.

Anthony Clipsom
View user's profile Send private message
Anthony Clipsom




Location: YORKSHIRE, UK
Joined: 27 Jul 2009

Posts: 341

PostPosted: Thu 05 Jan, 2023 12:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've had a quick look at the background of the original image, which is from Walter of Milemete, Liber de nobilitatibus, sapientiis et prudentiis regum; England (London), 1326–1327

Milemete seems to normally show bows and crossbows with knobbly arms. Take for example



In this case, the two-colour finish may indeed imply yew.

He also applied the same effect to ordinary bows and crossbows e.g.

https://digital.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/objects/b4d2880c-6267-4ad1-923b-fa323c58052b/surfaces/1eff82cd-7881-4314-8b78-e13a8b7a3755/

It's not conclusive but perhaps makes it less likely he intended some stylised reference to horn.

Anthony Clipsom
View user's profile Send private message
Ryan S.




Location: Germany
Joined: 04 May 2012

Posts: 391

PostPosted: Thu 05 Jan, 2023 7:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Manning wrote:
Have you checked the book Springalds and Great Crossbows? It has lots of documents on big crossbows like this, and Loades might have overlooked it because he is more a 'making and experiencing' person than a 'deep dives in archives' person. A document which says "a great crossbow of yew and two petriers" is easier to interpret than a painting.


Loades mentions it in his book, and is his source on great crossbows (I think that is why he uses the term great crossbow instead of rampant crossbow).

Anthony Clipsom wrote:

Just to be clear, having checked back in Loades' book, what he actually says is that the knobbly effect indicates the lath is made of wood. He doesn't specify yew nor attribute the knobbliness to knots. What exactly is indicated by the lumpy nature is less than clear because it is pretty rare to show bows and crossbows this way. The idea it represents Ibex horn in a abstract way is possible but it may just indicate that the weapon was roughly finished or, as Loades interprets, it contrasts the smooth finished appearance of a composite weapon.


Thanks for checking, I don´t have the book. I am pretty sure if it is wood it is yew, because yew is known to be knotty and other woods for crossbows are rare, and I believe, are not known in Europe.


I tried looking for the section in the book with a preview and found a reference to wooden crossbows in Berkhamsted and Glasgow. The back is knotty and the belly smooth. It is not as knotty as the illustration, but neither are horn bows. Here is a picture:
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Horn or Wood crossbow?
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum