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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Aug, 2020 8:58 am    Post subject: Royal Armouries rondel info sought         Reply with quote

Friends,
There's a rondel dagger in the Royal Armouries that's interesting to me. Info and a pic can be found here: https://collections.royalarmouries.org/object/rac-object-1214.html .

The description on their site says:
Quote:
Long, slender two-edged blade of lozenge section inlaid with a mark in copper alloy on either side, similar to a maltese cross. Short ricasso inlaid in gold with an illegible gothic inscription. Rondels at either end of the tang are octagonal, the upper with a facetted sherical pommel surrounded by four smaller studs intended to hold a decorative cap, now missing as are the grips. The steel has a thick black patina compatible with the tradition that it was found in the Thames.


Some questions I have:
-Anyone have better/more pics than what they show?
-The decorative cap they note as missing: what would that look like and be made of?
-Is it wise to assume the rondels are hollow?
-The now-missing grip was said to have been "inlaid with thin plates of yellow metal, marked with zig-zag marks." Would that have been something like what's inlaid into the sides of the Wallace Collection's famous A726 rondel dagger?

Happy

ChadA

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Martin Kallander




Location: Sweden
Joined: 25 Sep 2018

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PostPosted: Wed 05 Aug, 2020 9:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This might be an indirect answer, but RA usually provides the info you seek and are quite happy to take additional pictures for you if you send an email. Although I think they are closed right now, last time I asked for some more images than they display on their site Bob asked me to remind them when the lockdown ends and they reopen.

Martin
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Aug, 2020 11:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Too bad that image is blurred. Still, it's possible to see in the magnified version that there's a bit of something adhering to the side of the upper rondel next to a small hole. That leads me to think that the cap fully enclosed the top and sides of the rondel, possibly secured by a nail in a hole on the side at at least one point. There might be some material left under the studs on top as well. I wonder if the "zig zag" pattern was wiggle work.

This was a high-status weapon with gilding on the blade so I wouldn't be surprised if the cap and plates were gilt bronze/latten, maybe stripped off because somebody thought they were gold. I can't think why anyone would go to the trouble of removing the cap otherwise. It doesn't seem likely that it could have come off accidentally. Maybe if it was badly damaged a misguided collector would have removed it, but then there's the question of the grip/plates....

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Daniel Staberg




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PostPosted: Wed 05 Aug, 2020 2:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you click the small chevron & text "media" you get 7 more photos that are better focused but perhaps you were asking for even better photos?
"There is nothing more hazardous than to venture a battle. One can lose it
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Joe Maccarrone




Location: Burien, WA USA
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Aug, 2020 3:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric McHugh did a great repro -- I bet he's got more info..

https://crownforge.net/2019/01/03/towton-rondel-long-dagger-for-sale/
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Aug, 2020 3:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe Maccarrone wrote:
Eric McHugh did a great repro -- I bet he's got more info..

https://crownforge.net/2019/01/03/towton-rondel-long-dagger-for-sale/


Joe,
Thatís actually a different dagger from the same collection. Different blade cross section and dated a bit later. Happy

He may have info on the one above, though. Iíll check with him. Thanks!

Happy

ChadA

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Last edited by Chad Arnow on Wed 05 Aug, 2020 3:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Chad Arnow
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myArmoury Team

PostPosted: Wed 05 Aug, 2020 3:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Daniel Staberg wrote:
If you click the small chevron & text "media" you get 7 more photos that are better focused but perhaps you were asking for even better photos?


Ah, I missed that. Thanks!

Happy

ChadA

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JG Elmslie
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Aug, 2020 3:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

rondels on these are almost always 2-piece hollow structure. a [ section end, and a | flat plate.

I am sceptical of any "decorative cap" element. there are multiple extant examples, all have the rivets (which are themselves decorative) with no attached elements.


I wouldnt be surprised if the original structure was a (=) shaped grip, where the two hollows on the flats of the "=" part were filled with latten strips. Given this one is a bit earlier, and has no holes for pins, its difficult to say if the strips were on the flat of the grip, or on the edge, in line with the blade edge.
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