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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sun 31 Mar, 2019 6:40 pm    Post subject: Crusade-era dagger info         Reply with quote

Hello,
Iím hoping someone might have some more pics of the attached dagger, currently on loan to the Met. Itís inventory L.2011.58.



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Last edited by Chad Arnow on Fri 05 Apr, 2019 8:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Sun 31 Mar, 2019 10:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Off topic from your request, but the pommel alone makes me doubt the authenticity of the whole thing. Are there any other examples, whether from manuscript illustrations or surviving weapons, that show a pommel like this?

The only antecedent I have seen is in the form of this image, which I don't think is meant to illustrate a real weapon, given that it seems to be the Arch-angel Michael battling Satan.

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Arne G.





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PostPosted: Sun 31 Mar, 2019 10:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Early April Fools...?
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 01 Apr, 2019 3:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
Off topic from your request, but the pommel alone makes me doubt the authenticity of the whole thing. Are there any other examples, whether from manuscript illustrations or surviving weapons, that show a pommel like this?

The only antecedent I have seen is in the form of this image, which I don't think is meant to illustrate a real weapon, given that it seems to be the Arch-angel Michael battling Satan.


Yes, itís off topic as I just wanted pictures, not a debate. Happy But since you started it, the Met has another pommel (detached) of very similar form. Both were part of an article by Donald La Rocca about pommels from the Crusades, published in the Metís journal (you can find the article online). Those two pommels are the only ones of this form in the article; the rest are round with scalloped edges, crown shaped, or are lozenge shaped. La Rocca raises no authenticity issues with these two pommels among all those studied. The Met still had this item on display back in October when I was there and Iím assuming itís still there.

This is a page from that article showing both.



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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr, 2019 7:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:

Yes, itís off topic as I just wanted pictures, not a debate. Happy But since you started it, the Met has another pommel (detached) of very similar form. Both were part of an article by Donald La Rocca about pommels from the Crusades, published in the Metís journal (you can find the article online). Those two pommels are the only ones of this form in the article; the rest are round with scalloped edges, crown shaped, or are lozenge shaped. La Rocca raises no authenticity issues with these two pommels among all those studied. The Met still had this item on display back in October when I was there and Iím assuming itís still there.


I found an article in the heraldic journal Coat of Arms (Third Series, Volume XI, part 2, No. 230, Autumn 2015). It lists four more dagger (possibly sword) pommels of this form: equal armed cross flory (fleury), cast in copper alloy, with heraldic designs. So that brings us to 6 examples of the type. The article is titled "Recent Finds of Late Twelfth- or Early Thirteenth-Century Sword and Dagger Pommels Associated with the Crusades." The article is obviously focused on the heraldry so goes into little to no detail about the dating of the objects other than that they match those in La Rocca's article and they don't dispute his dating. Interesting!

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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr, 2019 12:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, very interesting!

Anything we can learn about the mysterious 12th c. Daggar is great. With enough information maybe we could see a reproduction

I hadnít seen anything like these pommels until this thread.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr, 2019 12:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeremy V. Krause wrote:
With enough information maybe we could see a reproduction


Yep. Count on it. Happy

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Apr, 2019 8:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This thread seems to have morphed beyond my original request, so I edited the topic title. I'd still love more pictures of the Met dagger or similar daggers/parts. People also seem interested in what has been found so far, so I figured I'd share pics and specs from the most recent article I referenced. These are the four cross-shaped pommels mentioned in the article.

Though the image is terrible, the pommel labeled #6 seems closest in overall shape to the Met's pommel. The others are a bit chunkier with less open space between the arms of the cross.

Measurements:

Figure 2 (#5 in the article): 37mm long, 38mm wide and 15mm thick (that's about 1.5 inches wide/tall by .6 inches thick).
#6: 36mm long, 31mm wide. No thickness given
#7: 40mm wide. No other dimensions given
#8: 35.4 mm long, 33.4mm wide, 12.7mm thick. Weight: 42.62g



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Lee O'Hagan




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PostPosted: Sat 06 Apr, 2019 1:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Although recent modern,
the pics may be of interest,
https://www.castlekeep.co.uk/2015/07/29/testing.html
personally i'm surprised there are not many more of these out there considering the importance of the cross overall
do remember reading mentions of a lot of crosses either inset or engraved etc in pommels over the years,
the flory (fleury) mention, would that be what we now see labelled fleur de lys type nowadays ?

the dagger is a lovely example at the start of the thread
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 06 Apr, 2019 1:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:

the flory (fleury) mention, would that be what we now see labelled fleur de lys type nowadays ?

the dagger is a lovely example at the start of the thread


A cross fleury/flory is a cross whose ends are fleur de lis-like.

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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Apr, 2019 1:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cool. Reminds me of some of the daggers in the Mac Bible that have similar pommels.
…irinn go BrŠch
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