| Author |
Message |
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
|
 Posted: Sun 31 Mar, 2019 6:40 pm Post subject: Crusade-era dagger info |
 |
|
Hello,
I’m hoping someone might have some more pics of the attached dagger, currently on loan to the Met. It’s inventory L.2011.58.
 Attachment: 37.86 KB
Attachment: 42.21 KB
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
Last edited by Chad Arnow on Fri 05 Apr, 2019 8:37 am; edited 1 time in total
|
|
    |
 |
Craig Peters
|
| Posted: Sun 31 Mar, 2019 10:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Off topic from your request, but the pommel alone makes me doubt the authenticity of the whole thing. Are there any other examples, whether from manuscript illustrations or surviving weapons, that show a pommel like this?
The only antecedent I have seen is in the form of this image, which I don't think is meant to illustrate a real weapon, given that it seems to be the Arch-angel Michael battling Satan.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Arne G.
|
| Posted: Sun 31 Mar, 2019 10:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
Early April Fools...?
|
|
|
|
|
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
|
| Posted: Mon 01 Apr, 2019 3:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Craig Peters wrote: | Off topic from your request, but the pommel alone makes me doubt the authenticity of the whole thing. Are there any other examples, whether from manuscript illustrations or surviving weapons, that show a pommel like this?
The only antecedent I have seen is in the form of this image, which I don't think is meant to illustrate a real weapon, given that it seems to be the Arch-angel Michael battling Satan. |
Yes, it’s off topic as I just wanted pictures, not a debate. But since you started it, the Met has another pommel (detached) of very similar form. Both were part of an article by Donald La Rocca about pommels from the Crusades, published in the Met’s journal (you can find the article online). Those two pommels are the only ones of this form in the article; the rest are round with scalloped edges, crown shaped, or are lozenge shaped. La Rocca raises no authenticity issues with these two pommels among all those studied. The Met still had this item on display back in October when I was there and I’m assuming it’s still there.
This is a page from that article showing both.
Attachment: 200.2 KB
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
|
|
|
|
|
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
|
| Posted: Thu 04 Apr, 2019 7:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Chad Arnow wrote: |
Yes, it’s off topic as I just wanted pictures, not a debate. But since you started it, the Met has another pommel (detached) of very similar form. Both were part of an article by Donald La Rocca about pommels from the Crusades, published in the Met’s journal (you can find the article online). Those two pommels are the only ones of this form in the article; the rest are round with scalloped edges, crown shaped, or are lozenge shaped. La Rocca raises no authenticity issues with these two pommels among all those studied. The Met still had this item on display back in October when I was there and I’m assuming it’s still there.
|
I found an article in the heraldic journal Coat of Arms (Third Series, Volume XI, part 2, No. 230, Autumn 2015). It lists four more dagger (possibly sword) pommels of this form: equal armed cross flory (fleury), cast in copper alloy, with heraldic designs. So that brings us to 6 examples of the type. The article is titled "Recent Finds of Late Twelfth- or Early Thirteenth-Century Sword and Dagger Pommels Associated with the Crusades." The article is obviously focused on the heraldry so goes into little to no detail about the dating of the objects other than that they match those in La Rocca's article and they don't dispute his dating. Interesting!
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jeremy V. Krause
|
| Posted: Thu 04 Apr, 2019 12:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yes, very interesting!
Anything we can learn about the mysterious 12th c. Daggar is great. With enough information maybe we could see a reproduction
I hadn’t seen anything like these pommels until this thread.
|
|
|
|
|
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
|
| Posted: Thu 04 Apr, 2019 12:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Jeremy V. Krause wrote: | With enough information maybe we could see a reproduction
|
Yep. Count on it.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
|
|
|
|
|
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
|
| Posted: Fri 05 Apr, 2019 8:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
This thread seems to have morphed beyond my original request, so I edited the topic title. I'd still love more pictures of the Met dagger or similar daggers/parts. People also seem interested in what has been found so far, so I figured I'd share pics and specs from the most recent article I referenced. These are the four cross-shaped pommels mentioned in the article.
Though the image is terrible, the pommel labeled #6 seems closest in overall shape to the Met's pommel. The others are a bit chunkier with less open space between the arms of the cross.
Measurements:
Figure 2 (#5 in the article): 37mm long, 38mm wide and 15mm thick (that's about 1.5 inches wide/tall by .6 inches thick).
#6: 36mm long, 31mm wide. No thickness given
#7: 40mm wide. No other dimensions given
#8: 35.4 mm long, 33.4mm wide, 12.7mm thick. Weight: 42.62g
Attachment: 71.83 KB
Attachment: 55.26 KB
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lee O'Hagan
|
| Posted: Sat 06 Apr, 2019 1:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Although recent modern,
the pics may be of interest,
https://www.castlekeep.co.uk/2015/07/29/testing.html
personally i'm surprised there are not many more of these out there considering the importance of the cross overall
do remember reading mentions of a lot of crosses either inset or engraved etc in pommels over the years,
the flory (fleury) mention, would that be what we now see labelled fleur de lys type nowadays ?
the dagger is a lovely example at the start of the thread
|
|
|
|
|
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
|
| Posted: Sat 06 Apr, 2019 1:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
the flory (fleury) mention, would that be what we now see labelled fleur de lys type nowadays ?
the dagger is a lovely example at the start of the thread |
A cross fleury/flory is a cross whose ends are fleur de lis-like.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
|
|
|
|
|
|
Stephen Curtin
|
| Posted: Sun 07 Apr, 2019 1:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
Cool. Reminds me of some of the daggers in the Mac Bible that have similar pommels.
Éirinn go Brách
|
|
|
|
|
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
|
| Posted: Sat 06 Jul, 2019 11:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
Here’s what’s on its way to me as we speak. The image quality isn’t great due to the online pic resizer I used. I’ll take better pics later.
Attachment: 121.04 KB
Attachment: 87.39 KB
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
|
|
|
|
|
Victor R.
|
| Posted: Sat 06 Jul, 2019 12:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Sweet! Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but with whom did you do the commission? Looking forward to more pics and sharing on the myArmoury FB site so we can spread this goodness into some of the other groups. 
|
|
|
|
|
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
|
| Posted: Sat 06 Jul, 2019 1:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Victor R. wrote: | | Sweet! Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but with whom did you do the commission? Looking forward to more pics and sharing on the myArmoury FB site so we can spread this goodness into some of the other groups. |
It’s by Josh Davis of Davis Reproductions.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
|
|
|
|
|
|
Scott Kowalski
Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 818
|
| Posted: Sat 06 Jul, 2019 4:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Chad Arnow wrote: | | Victor R. wrote: | | Sweet! Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but with whom did you do the commission? Looking forward to more pics and sharing on the myArmoury FB site so we can spread this goodness into some of the other groups. |
It’s by Josh Davis of Davis Reproductions. |
It looks great Chad! Congratulations on having this made. Josh is great to work with as well as doing great work!
Chris Landwehr 10/10/49-1/1/09 My Mom
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jeremy V. Krause
|
| Posted: Sun 07 Jul, 2019 7:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
That's great Chad!
Thanks for making this interesting piece. Great to see faithful recreations of the elusive early medieval dagger. Is that enamel in the pommel?
|
|
|
|
|
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
|
| Posted: Sun 07 Jul, 2019 7:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Scott Kowalski wrote: | | It looks great Chad! Congratulations on having this made. Josh is great to work with as well as doing great work! |
I agree. Josh is great and pretty quick, too. He's really easy to work with.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
|
|
|
|
|
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
|
| Posted: Sun 07 Jul, 2019 7:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Jeremy V. Krause wrote: | That's great Chad!
Thanks for making this interesting piece. Great to see faithful recreations of the elusive early medieval dagger. Is that enamel in the pommel? |
Jeremy,
Thanks! It is modern enamel on the pommel. The surviving examples in decent condition show enamel (or traces) both in the center disk (which can have a few different designs--this one is a descending dove) and in the grooves in the arms of the cross. Red and blue seems to predominate. The original of this one seems to have traces of red in the center and blue in the grooves on the arms, so that's what I had Josh do.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tim Lison
|
| Posted: Sun 07 Jul, 2019 3:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
That's just great Chad. I love it! I just commissioned Josh so I'm happy to see what excellent results you got from him. This dagger is so cool in so many ways. That pommel is awesome. Congrats on a great piece.
|
|
|
|
|
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
|
| Posted: Fri 24 Apr, 2020 8:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
While researching something totally different, I came across this dagger:
It was in this thread.. I’m a bit dubious of the crossguard, but the pommel fits this family.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This is a standard topic